by Marc Stein. Copyright © Marc Stein 2026. All rights reserved.

Introduction

While working on my Ph.D. dissertation, which I completed in 1994, I wanted to interview Henri David, but I was not able to do so until 1996. Since the 1970s, David has been one of the most high-profile gay figures in Piladelphia, known best for hosting major gay events (including drag balls and Halloween parties) and owning Halloween, a Center City boutique featuring jewelry, gemstones, and antiques.

David supplied the following biographical information before the taping began:

Date of Birth: "Secret"

Place of Birth: Philadelphia

Place of Mother's Birth: Russia

Mother's Occupation: Housewife and school administrator

Place of Father's Birth: London, England

Father's Occupation: Master electrician

Race/Ethnicity: Jewish-Gypsy

Religious Bckground: Raised Orthodox Jewish

Class Background: Upper middle-class

Residential History

1946-1962: Strawberry Mansion and West Oak Lane, Philadelphia

1962: 308 Delancey Street, Philadelphia

1963-1973: 2404 Lombard St., 2524 Naudain St., and other locations, Center City, Philadelphia

1973-1986: 929 N. 29th Street, Philadelphia

Work History

Early 1970s-Present: Jeweler

Interview Transcript

Marc Stein Interview with Henri David, 2 May 1996. Transcribed by Marc Stein and Jennifer Zoland.

 

MS: This is Marc Stein interviewing Henri David at his home and business in Center City on May 2nd, 1996. So I thought we could start with you just talking a little bit about your family background, your childhood. You grew up in Philadelphia, I know.

 

HD: Mmhmm.

 

MS: So what can you tell me about the early years?

 

HD: Well what I remember is that it was a fairy tale. It really was. The love in the house was beyond. I mean the loving and the touching and the kissing--I really thought that's what everyone had. I didn't know that my mom wasn't Mrs. Cleaver. It wasn't 'til I was a teenager and my peers and I'd hear about divorces and I'd hear about stuff. And what? I mean I just always thought that's what everyone had. We were comfortable and there was always summer camp and there was always piano lessons and dancing. And it was just everything I ever wanted I had. And I always had a million friends. And I was always the leader of the pack. And I was always school president. And I always had the lead in the school play and all the other things that the leaders do.

 

MS: And what section of the city?

 

HD: Strawberry Mansion. And then West Oak Lane.

 

MS: And were those Jewish? I know you said you were Jewish before.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: Was that a Jewish section?

 

HD: Basically they were primarily Jewish, yeah. And my friends were mostly Jewish. But the great thing was that even though I was raised so orthodox, my parents sent me to public school, which was wonderful. I mean the minute school was over, I went back to synagogue every day. I lived in synagogue. But the fact that they sent me to public school was incredible because I met every other kind of person, which wouldn't have happened in Hebrew school.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I'm really glad of that. It was terrific.

 

MS: And do you want to say around what period this was that you were living in West Oak Lane and Strawberry Mansion? Are we talking the fifties or forties?

 

HD: Fifties, sixties.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: O.K. And did you have any sense in those early years of being different in any obvious way?

 

HD: Oh absolutely.

 

MS: Yes?

 

HD: Oh! I was the chosen one. Are you kidding? Sure.

 

MS: Chosen how?

 

HD: Well like I said, it was weird because I was the most popular kid at school always. I was as gay as a goose. But no one picked on me. I was surrounded by girls always. I was a real lady-killer. I dated my share of them. But I look back on it and it was just to get to their brothers.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: That's what that was about.

 

MS: And what do you mean when you say you were gay as a goose?

 

HD Well I was just totally out and wasn't even aware of it. I mean my hero then was Liberace. And I'd go to assembly and class stuff and I'd wear sequined vests and all this carrying on. And no one said a thing about it. It was theater. And theater was my life back then especially. I was first baritone in the all-city choir and I was always doing solos with the orchestra on the piano. And I was a wild man.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And there was no problem with it. It was just what I did.

 

MS: So no one picked on you?

 

HD: Ever. Not ever in my life. No.

 

MS: And did other people see you or did you see yourself as at all feminine? Was that part of the picture?

 

HD: Ah, no. I don't think that they did, because in school especially I was as much into guy things. I mean I was on the soccer team and track team and just because I enjoyed it. I was good at it, so I did it.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And it was fun. I enjoyed myself.  I was in advanced band, the orchestra,  the choir, and something else. And then they came to me and they said, “We're gonna' have a school marching band and we just want you to know about it so you don't get angry because there's nothing you can do. You play the piano. You can't obviously march with a piano.” And I was very disappointed because I wanted to be in everything. And I went home and thought about it and came back the next day and I said, “I'll bet I can play a glockenspiel.” A xylophone's like a piano. And they said, “Well, all right. We'll get you one.” And they got me one and I was to show up for the uniform. And I got a date with one of the football players or something, but for some reason I was very, very naughty. And I didn't make it in time and I got there and all the uniforms were gone. And I was livid, because I was the star of everything. “How dare you not have a uniform for me.” And all they had left were some of the women's uniforms. And it was not a problem. I said, “Well I'll just take this one and I'll pull the darts in and  I'll supply my own pants. Don't worry about it.” But the women's had all this braid on it and all this extra stuff.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It was not a problem. Then unbeknownst to them I went out and bought streamers and foxtails and all this other stuff to hang on the glockenspiel. Well, unbeknownst to me,  our school had won the all-public school championship that year and so we were to play the all-Catholic school championship thing. And so it was this huge event at some stadium and they brought me down there and I just assumed that our band will stand here and their band will stand there. No. Every band in the city was there and we were all going to play the same song, except they took all the horns and put them together, and all the flutes and put them together, and all that, everything put together, and they put all the glockenspiels together. And I was the only male glockenspiel player in the city. And there I was with all my strings and hanging and stuff and tassels. And so the whole thing started and of course my entire school was up in the stands, and the roar that went up from the crowd when we started marching around.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: 'Cause I was the only guy. It was wonderful; it was wonderful.

 

MS: So now tell me about this dating the football player.

 

HD: That's all I ever did. They were all supposed to be straight, yeah right. Like I said, it never came up. It was like, “Well you can go and have a good time at Henri's house and he's not going to tell anybody.” And they all did.

 

MS: How early did that start?

 

HD: Oh, thirteen. I was very busy.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I was very busy.

 

MS: And were you also having sex with women?

 

HD: Sex with women? Oh yeah, oh yeah. But not as much.

 

MS: And so lots of guys?

 

HD: Oh lots. There were lots.

 

MS: Any steadies in your teenage years?

 

HD: Yeah, yeah. Off and on, there were a few. And the ones that were seemingly the most intense chose to go back in the closet, interestingly enough.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: We'd go on double dates with our girlfriends and the girls would go home and then we'd go to bed. And that went on for a couple of years but they went back in the closet.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Someday I'll find them.

 

MS: Uhhuh. Did you have a type that early, do you think?

 

HD: Nope. Not at all.

 

MS: All different kinds.

 

HD: All different kinds. They had to be gorgeous, but other than that, no.

 

MS: And do you remember what you were thinking of yourself at that time? Did you have a language to describe yourself?

 

HD: No. No. Not until I was about fifteen, because that's when I came in town. And I came out very young in town. I always didn't look my age. I always looked older.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And I was able to get in bars at sixteen. Without any question. Nobody said a word.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I just could. I was shaving at twelve for god sakes. And so at fifteen I was in Rittenhouse Square, which was the coming out place. I mean that was it.

 

MS: When was this?

 

HD: Sixties. And what was happening then was American Bandstand, which was a big deal, very big deal. I was not by any means a regular like some of the kids were, but I went and I knew everybody. I knew Dick Clark.

 

MS: On American Bandstand?

 

HD: Yeah, I went on the show a lot. Not enough to become, like I said, a regular, but I went on a lot. And so many of the kids were gay. And their only way to be gay was to come to Rittenhouse Square because no one else knew.

 

MS: Was American Bandstand being filmed or done in Center City?

 

HD: It was live. Yeah, yeah. It was out in West Philly at this awful, godawful place.

 

MS: But the same set was going every night?

 

HD: Oh sure, sure. And it was like this in thing, like if you knew, you knew that Rittenhouse Square was where you could hang out and be yourself because we couldn't get in bars. Well at least they couldn't. And so that was a real big part of my early....

 

MS: So tell me about the scene in Rittenhouse Square.

 

HD: It was wild. It was wild. You would never walk in in a pair of jeans. It didn't matter if you were ten. You had to be dressed to kill. Every night of the week it was a party. And we were kids but we would go out of our way to find an outfit or something to wear every night. And I mean we would have little birthday parties for each other there and bring cake and sodas, because we had nowhere to go.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: No one had their own place in our age group.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Like say fifteen through twenty. Nobody had their own place to go. And if someone's parents did go away, ah, well we were all there. I mean that was it. Just like any other kind of group.

 

MS: Right.

 

HD: Except that it was a chance to be gay.

 

MS: But was the whole scene that young or was it different age groups?

 

HD: Oh there was all different age groups. But the young kids ended up there.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: That was the place to go. And in the winters, for a couple of winters at least, we all went to what used to be Penn Center ice skating rink.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: That was very cruisy and that was the place where the kids began to hang out. The fun thing about the Rittenhouse Square days was that the Square itself was populated by us and by little blue-haired Jewish ladies who lived in all the Rittenhouse buildings, who thought we were just so adorable. “Ah, so cute. Oy look at these nice boys; they're so cute together. A little fagela, a little this.” But it was harmless.

 

MS: Do you think they all knew?

 

HD: Oh they all knew. Absolutely. And they'd kid around with us. We'd do their hair, and a couple of them became friends with us, and they'd invite us up to their apartment and let us try on their jewels. And it was just hysterical. It was hysterical.

 

MS: Was this a mixed race crowd or not?

 

HD: You mean the kids in the Square?

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: Very mixed. Very mixed. Black, white, Cuban, everything.

 

MS: So a lot of socializing cross-race?

 

HD: Oh yeah.

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: Oh yeah.

 

MS: And lesbians too?

 

HD: Yes. Yes. Quite a few. Many of whom are still around.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I see them. I see them all the time.

 

MS: And did the gay men and the lesbians mix a lot together or were they pretty separate?

 

HD: No, very separate. There's very few, and that's still to this day. Back then it was worse because there was the old bulldykes still happening. The older women. And so the younger girls had to be with the older women because that was theirs.

 

MS: But was that the scene in Rittenhouse Square, would you say?

 

HD: A little bit. A little bit yeah. And of course you'd get the older man coming in the Square to pick up the young kids. You’d get the old chickenhawks.

 

MS: Right.

 

HD: And we would just laugh at them and giggle and, “Yeah right. They're going to get us, sure.” Never happen.

 

MS: Uhhuh. Now I know you said around this time your parents died. Is that right?

 

HD: Yeah. My father had died a few years before and then my mother passed away. So that was it at actually eighteen. By eighteen I just was. That was it. Here I am.

 

MS: And did you move into Center City at that point?

 

HD: Well I was already in Center City.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: With her. And then when she passed away, I stayed there for a little bit and then I moved out.

 

MS: I see. So why did she move to Center City?

 

HD: It seemed to be the best location for her because she was working for the board of education.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And that made the most sense and I could get wherever I needed to be. So it made the most sense.

 

MS: And do you remember where it was that you all moved to? Was that one of the addresses that you gave me?

 

HD: That was 308 Delancey. That's where I lived with her for about five years.

 

MS: So that's 3rd?

 

HD: 3rd and Delancey, yeah.

 

MS: And was there anything going on in Washington Square?

 

HD: No.

 

MS: Not really.

 

HD: No. In fact all of Society Hall was not what it is now.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: It was run down.

 

MS: So you said before also something about you were going to bars when you were sixteen.

 

HD: Oh yeah.

 

MS: Do you remember the first gay bar you went to?

 

HD: The Allegro. Like everybody else. That's where everybody started. There were many, many bars here then. Many.

 

MS: What were the ones you went to the most?

 

HD: The Allegro and it used to be the Westbury. Not where it is now. It's in a whole different location. And the Mystique. That was a wonderful place. I'm so sorry that's gone.

 

MS: Can you describe the different scenes in the Allegro and the Mystique and the Westbury?

 

HD: The Allegro was three or four floors of madness. The first floor was a cruise bar. The second floor was a cruise bar. The third floor was a dance bar. I think it was only three floors. But it was madness. It was always mobbed. Mobbed. And I was very popular. I was very busy. And I'd go from floor to floor and carry on. And at the young age of sixteen, I met the owner, who took me under his wing.

 

MS: Mmhmm. Do you want to say what his name was?

 

HD: James Mark Shroyer. S-H-R-O-Y-E-R. I'll never forget him. An incredible man, brilliant, brilliant man, spent a lot of time in New York, had impeccable taste.

 

MS: Was he gay himself?

 

HD: Oh yeah. And after he tried to get in my pants and I made it very clear—"This is not going to happen but I think you're neat”--we became real good buddies. And he was a drunk unfortunately. And so many a night I would help him leave the bar and get home. And I'd make sure nothing happened to him. And put him to bed and make sure he was locked up good and tight and then I'd go home to my mother. And he really taught me a lot. I just would hang out in his house. He'd have private parties.

 

MS: Do you have any idea how he came to be owning the Allegro?

 

HD: Not a clue. Not a clue. Who he bought it from or if he had partners I don't know. I don't have a clue. I just knew him because of the bar.

 

MS: Right.

 

HD: And he was a character; he was quite a character. And because of him, I got to be in his home and meet older gay men who were totally settled and happy in their ways and the whole bit and see another side of gay life other than bars. And a lot of these people, even though they were his friends, didn't bother with the bars.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: They went into a different kind of social scene. And they were into the theater and this, that, and the other. And it was amazing. It opened up whole new worlds to me.

 

MS: And was the Allegro all men?

 

HD: Yes.

 

MS: So you don't really remember lesbians there at all?

 

HD: Once in a great while. Very seldom. Usually fag hags. A lot of fag hags. Overdone, over-puffed, over-hairdoed women, but not lesbians.

 

MS: And black gay men or really just white?

 

HD: No black gay men were welcome there.

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: Because it was the '60s and '70s. Things were cool.

 

MS: And then what about the other two places? What do you remember about the Westbury and the Mystique?

 

HD: The Westbury very little because it was more of a hustler place.

 

MS: Oh, is that right? Yeah?

 

HD: Yeah. Much more that kind of stuff. The Mystique was the first uppity place that I remember. The downstairs was like a living room. It had a huge fireplace and sofas and they served dinner upstairs and everyone came to be very grown up there. Everyone dressed to kill there. And it was wild. It was wild. They had a good dance floor. It was big. And they had a big fire unfortunately.

 

MS: Also all men or was that mixed?

 

HD: That was very more mixed. It was a little later and it was gay men and their straight girlfriends who wanted to dress up and be seen.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It was very much a place to be seen. It was very hip. And in fact toward the end of its run, it got a lot of straight people. A lot of straight couples who wanted to be seen.

 

MS: But not lesbians?

 

HD: Not lesbians. No. Very seldom.

 

MS: Did you go to any of the after hours clubs in the '60s?

 

HD: Yeah, yeah I did. I went to the Zuzu.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

MS: Is that the name of another one?

 

HD: No, but that's what the Zuzu was like. It was Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It was insane.

 

MS: How so?

 

HD: Well I mean you'd leave at seven in the morning and that was unheard of in those days. And it was very large and totally mixed. You could have straight City Hall guys in there and black drag queens. I mean everything you wanted was going on in there. Drugs were rampant. I never did a drug in my life so I was an observer. I've come to be proud of it. Back then I didn't really give a shit. But I was an observer. Everyone was high as a kite and they were having sex in the bathrooms. It was just nuts.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Especially the fact that it was Philadelphia. I mean I went up to New York and did all that, but this was Philadelphia. And it was the after hours place not to be believed. It was insane.

 

MS: Any restaurants in the '60s that you remember that were gay?

 

HD: Just Dewey's.

 

MS: Now I know there were two Dewey’s.

 

HD: On 13th.

 

MS: There was the 13th Street and 17th Street.

 

HD: Right. And 17th Street became Little Pete's.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: O.K., which also became an after-hours thing.

 

MS: But were both of them gay when they were Dewey's?

 

HD: Just the one on 13th.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And that's simply because it couldn't be anything but. There was too many of us. It was a wild place. A lot happening.

 

MS: And was that mixed gay and lesbian?

 

HD: Yes. Yes.

 

MS: So you remember seeing lesbians in what kinds of spaces.

 

HD: Oh a lot.

 

MS: In Dewey's, you said?

 

HD: Yes. A lot.

 

MS: And I guess you said a little bit in Rittenhouse Square?

 

HD: Right. In Rittenhouse Square there was a restaurant called Day's. D-A-Y-S on the corner of 18th and Spruce.  And that was very heavily gay. It was also very mixed in the Rittenhouse Square area. All the apartment buildings.

 

MS: Is that Day's Deli?

 

HD: Day's Deli.

 

MS: Right.

 

HD: Well originally it was called Day's. That was fun.

 

MS: Uhhuh. So let's see, I think on the phone you were telling me still in the early '60s that you do remember going to the Halloween drag parades.

 

HD: The last one.

 

MS: Yeah. Can you tell me about that? How did you end up going and what was it like?

 

HD: I'd heard about it. And I wanted to see it of course because Halloween is my high holiday. So I had to see what this was about. And it was everything I'd heard. People lined Broad Street. And it was mostly straight people and they were perfectly friendly and lovely. And they cheered and yelled and it was very supportive of all these drags walking not a lot. I mean they only walked from I think towards Washington.

 

MS: From Washington to where?

 

HD: To Broad and Locust. And then down Locust to the strip, where there were fifteen bars. I mean it was nuts. There was partying in the streets, O.K.?

 

MS: And some people have said to me that there were contests in the bars and that this was promenading.

 

HD: Probably, but I didn't know.

 

MS: O.K. So you were on the outside, on the street.

 

HD: I was only on the outside then.

 

MS: About how many drag queens do you think may have participated?

 

HD: Maybe two hundred. Two hundred that I saw.

 

MS: And if you have to guess, how many people were on the street?

 

HD: A couple thousand. It was wild. It was like Mummer's Day. I mean there were that many people on the street. And what I remember about this and actually Philly Magazine did a page on me with this, was that everything was cool on Broad Street until it turned down Locust. And unfortunately gangs had come down that year looking for trouble. Whereas before it was people looking for a good time, now this was trouble. This was the '60s and be-ins were happening, O.K.? All this stuff was happening. And you've got a different mindset of a person. And so this was known about probably from their parents. And these kids came down here looking for trouble.

 

MS: Do you remember from what neighborhood, if you had to guess?

 

HD: If I had to guess, I would say Kensington. That's what they looked like.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And there were clumps of them. And what I witnessed as the finale, as the end of the parade, was this gang of kids jumping on a Black drag queen, with like seven of them or something. Totally unfair. She's fighting for her life and Rizzo steps in. Now at the time he was a lieutenant, I think, or a captain. We used to call him the Cisco Kid 'cause he always wore two guns and he would always pull them both out. He was a maniac. The man was a giant. Bear of a man. And he was there and everything was cool. He was just keeping the peace. And this fight erupted and he jumped in. He saved this queen. Sort of shoved her out of the way, kicked all the guys down onto the ground, and broke everything up. And that was it. He said, “Everybody inside or you're getting arrested.” So there was no more partying on the streets and everybody had to find a hole. They just had to. I had to go home. And that was the last parade. It was gone.

 

MS: How was it the last? Do you know why it didn't happen again?

 

HD: I think word got out and probably as rumors go it got overblown. Maybe some people thought, “Oh well the police stopped it.” They stopped it for their own good. They stopped it so that there wouldn't be any more trouble. And maybe enough people saw that gangs were coming and that maybe this was a dumb idea. Maybe we shouldn't be doing this anymore.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And the drags in general probably got scared.

 

MS: So you saw the police playing a supportive role in some sense in this.

 

HD: Absolutely.

 

MS: Would you say that was true of Rizzo in general?

 

HD: Yes.

 

MS: With gays? At this point?

 

HD: I knew the man. And he was perfectly cool as far as I'm concerned. He came from the old school. The old school in this city was he liked knowing where the gay bars were. He liked knowing where the gay people went because he knew where they were. He didn't have to go look for them. He knew that if he closed down anywhere we'd find somewhere else and he'd have to go look for us. So it's better to know where we are. He left us alone. He was cool.

 

MS: So there weren't a lot of raids?

 

HD: No. No. If there were raids, they were for underage. Nothing to do with being gay.

 

MS: And did you ever experience a raid in a bar?

 

HD: Hundreds.

 

MS: You did?

 

HD: Ah, all the time.

 

MS: But you said they were always for age things? In what bars? Do you remember them?

 

HD: All of them.

 

MS: All of them.

 

HD: All of them. We were pulled in constantly. And then they just let us go. They just harassed us. That's all they were doing. Whether they were looking for a pay-off, I don't know. But it had nothing to do with being gay. At least for us. We never had a hassle. I never had a problem with a cop in this town. Ever.

 

MS: Some people have also talked to me about a black drag parade on South Street. Did you hear anything about it?

 

HD: Never. No.

 

MS: O.K.

 

HD: It wouldn’t surprise me, but I've never heard of it.

 

MS: O.K.

 

HD: No.

 

MS: And was this really your entry to drag culture or had you known about it way before?

 

HD: I had known a bit about it, but this was the first time I'd seen masses of them.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It was pretty exciting. All these sequins and feathers. It was pretty amazing to see it all at one time. And from that point on that was it. I was in New York, I was everywhere, and I became a drag nut. There wasn't anything I didn't know about it. I learned how to do drag from some of the best in the business. I taught drag, I put hundreds of people in drag. Hundreds. And this city was happening all through the '70s.

 

MS: So maybe you can tell me first why you think you were so into it. What was so appealing about it?

 

HD: It was one form of theater for me. I had done the rest of it. I had done Shakespeare and I had done serious drama and I had done all kinds of costuming and makeup and I tried everything else. I could be an old man and all the standard stuff. And this was one more thing. Well let me see if I can do this. Let me see if I can fool somebody.

 

MS: And so were you into kind of real drag?

 

HD: No, no. It was always showbiz. It was always stage presence. It was always a va-va-va-voom, Zsa Zsa Gabor kind of hello darling kind of showgirl. I was a showgirl. I for some reason was blessed with great legs. I have amazing women's legs.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: O.K.? I don't look anything like a woman. I can look thoroughly convincing and I fooled a lot of people but I didn't walk the streets. It was strictly for a show or for a party. I was never gonna' just walk down the street and see if I get picked up.

 

MS: So maybe if we could start just with the '60s and the kind of pre-Stonewall years, where was drag happening in the city and I know you played a big role.

 

HD: It was everywhere. I gave two, maybe three events a year for drag queens. There was a Miss Philadelphia Affair. There was a Miss Queen of the May. There was a Miss Springtime. Any excuse we could think of for drag there was. Halloween was still always the main nut. That was still the key event. And at Halloween there had to be two drag categories just for drag queens, not just for costumes, although it was mainly costumes.

 

MS: Wait, what were the two categories? One was for drag and the other was for?

 

HD: One was for most believable; one was for most beautiful. Definite difference.

 

MS: Tell me the difference.

 

HD: Well believable could be a dog. A real bow wow. But still actually look like a female.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: That's the big difference, I think. And a couple of years somebody won both. It could happen. Why not? But it's two separate categories.

 

MS: And do you remember your first big party? When it was?

 

HD: The first big Halloween was '67. That was the first major. This is '96. This is my 28th year, so whatever that was.

 

MS: 28th? And this is '96?

 

HD: '69.

 

MS: No, that's '68.

 

HD: '68. O.K., whatever, right in there. O.K., now prior to that I had done a number of major drag, like Miss Philadelphia stuff.

 

MS: Do you know when Miss Philadelphia started?

 

HD: A couple years before. Maybe '65, '64, maybe.

 

MS: And where was it? Where did you hold them?

 

HD: We held them in the old Broadwood Hotel, which was Broad and Vine. And then it became Philadelphia Athletic Club and then they unfortunately tore it down. It had three ballrooms in the hotel. Amazing. Big old wonderful place. Wonderful place. That was the first.

 

MS: And how did you come up with this idea of having these huge parties? Had someone been doing them before you?

 

HD; Yeah. Back to Rittenhouse Square. I am seventeen and this man walks into Rittenhouse Square. Big gorgeous towering beautiful man says, “Someone wants to talk to you. Come with me.” He was in a black suit and I thought, “Ooh, this is like in the movies; this is great.” And he put me in an old Cadillac limousine and took me up to a mansion in Elkins Park. And it was kind of like the Addams Family. The circular drive and the whole, but it was a little shabby, a little run-down. Yyou shouldn't look too close. And he takes me in and I meet this man, who turned out to be his lover. And this man was named Sabrina. Sabrina is the person who runs The Queen, the film The Queen. Sabrina's real name is Jack.

 

MS: Doroshow, is that right?

 

HD: Jackie, Jackie Doroshow. And Jackie sits me down and he's a real cute guy; he's real fun; he's real bubbly; and he's just a total ball of fun. He's surrounded by these old musty velvet curtains. And he was saying to me, “I want to start doing things in this town, baby. I want to start giving these parties and they're going to be wild and we're going to be fabulous.” Dah, dah, dah, dah. And I'm sitting there, starry-eyed little kid, going, “Yeah.” And he said, “And you're coming with me. You're gonna do this with me.” I said, “Why me?” And he says, “Well, I know about your showbiz background and I know about this. I've checked you out kid. I know all about you. And frankly, we need the younger kids and you're gonna' bring them to us.” He said, “I've got the drag queens; you've got the young stuff; we're gonna' do this; we're gonna’ happen.” And I was like, “O.K.” I didn't believe a word of it but it sure sounded good. And a week or so later he stuck me in his limo and took me off to New York, up in Brooklyn. Some wild drag ball, this big huge event with three thousand people. “Oh my god, what is this?” And he started taking me regularly to these things. And I kinda' got up my courage, not that I was ever shy, and I'd go up to the people running these things and I'd say, “Excuse me, but how do you do this?” And they'd say, “What do you mean?” “Is there a license? I mean, how does a person give a thing?” And they'd say, ”You take some money, you rent a ballroom, you give a party.” “Oh, I like that.” So the seed was planted.

 

MS: I see.

 

HD: This could happen. Still wasn't my money, still wasn't my parties. Sabrina started. That was how it all began. Sabrina started the Miss Philadelphia thing.

 

MS: Cause she had the money to rent the place?

 

HD: She had the money; she had the wherewithal; she had the guts.

 

MS: And did she organize the first party that you were talking about?

 

HD: Absolutely, absolutely. And I was her right hand, O.K.? One event I went in drag and during intermission I changed and came out as a man and sang as a man in the second half. But I was always the MC along with her. She was my drag mother. I mean this is just how it began and I became firmly entrenched with his family, the mother, the whole thing.

 

MS: Tell me about his family.

 

HD: Fascinating. Mystery. Total mystery. To this day we don't know. We don't know what that was about. Jackie was a kept man for many years. And there was certainly some money from that. But the mother, who was this little dowager, she was fabulous. She looked like Zsa Zsa. In fact, Jack looked like her in drag.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Except she was this big and he was. And the mother kind of ran the ship. We would give parties in the mansion to raise money for the big parties. It was like five dollars or something around there. We'd have a live band and the whole thing. And the mother would be at the door taking the money in a full length black velvet gown and her minks and her diamonds. And mother would be standing there with her whip and chill hairdo just like Jackie would wear. And she would take the money at the door. So she was obviously totally cool about it, but very into this whole thing.

 

MS: And is Sabrina still alive?

 

HD: Yes. Jackie's still alive. He's still kicking. He's still living in New York in the same apartment where the film, The Queen, was shot and all that. He's done it over a few times. They recently did a thing on him on The Bulletin, the Larry Kane kind of thing. And it was the scariest thing I've seen in years.

 

MS: I saw something with Harlow.

 

HD: Yeah, that was it. That's what I'm talking about. It was the Harlow thing where they used Jackie in it.

 

MS: I see. Oh, O.K. Oh right, yes.

 

HD: And he basically has had a ton of facial work done by some butchers. And he looks like a caricature of himself. If I ever get to show you the photos, it was very funny. We looked similar; we didn't look alike at all but we looked similar. We were the same build, the same height, the same coloring. And no one knew what he looked like. He was a mystery. Sabrina was a mystery. No one knew what Sabrina looked like out of drag. They only ever saw him on stage. And so in the early days he would send me out as him. He would send me to clubs and bars and I would have to say I was him.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It was very funny.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And to me it was just one more acting job, until people started knowing who I was and then I couldn't be him anymore.

 

MS: So tell me, who were the Philadelphia drag queens? From all walks of life?

 

HD: Sarah Vaughan. Sarah Vaughan. Oh yeah, yeah. All nationalities, absolutely.

 

MS: All white?

 

HD: Sure, mostly white, but Italian and Jewish and Black and Puerto Rican and totally mixed bag.

 

MS: And of the famous ones, you said Sarah Vaughan was one?

 

HD: Sarah Vaughan, Marilyn.

 

MS: Marilyn was just Marilyn?

 

HD: Marilyn, just Marilyn. A legend. A legend in her own time.

 

MS: And was she white?

 

HD: Yes. Who else was a legend? Vahee. V-A-H-E-E, Vahee. Ah! A scream. He used to do comedy drag and would work in straight clubs, all straight clubs.

 

MS: And also white? Also white?

 

HD: Yes.

 

MS: Were there places to go apart from the big parties? Were there drag shows in some of the straight clubs?

 

HD: No, no. Not by then. No, that ended, I think, in the early '50s. I think.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: There were a number of bars where drag was welcome.

 

MS: And what were those?

 

HD: I don't remember per se. I just know that there was hardly a night I was in any bar there wasn't a drag queen. And it would vary; it would go back and forth. Suddenly for six months this bar was the big drag hangout and they'd all go over there.

 

MS: And hostility on the part of non-drag gay men or not really?

 

HD: Not until the '70s, no.

 

MS: But not in the '60s?

 

HD: Not in the '60s at all. The '60s everybody would wear a dress at least once a year. It was fun. It was just fun. It was not a problem. It wasn't until the politically correct bullshit started happening. The San Francisco crap, the flannel shirt and 501s and the right work boots. And god, bore me to tears.

 

MS: Well let's hold up on the '70s cause I want to stay in this world in the '60s for a second longer. Were lesbians in it? Oh I guess I want to ask first about the audience for drag at the parties. Also all walks of life?

 

HD: Yes, everybody. Absolutely everybody. There were no holds barred.

 

MS:  If you had to guess, when you did a lot of these parties, what percent was straight in the audience?

 

HD: Back then a third.

 

MS: And what percent was gay male?

 

HD: Almost all.

 

MS: And lesbians in the audience at all?

 

HD: Yes, but they would come in drag.

 

MS: And what was lesbian drag?

 

HD: Tuxedos.

 

MS: Femmes and butches?

 

HD: Absolutely. It was their statement. It was really weird, but that was their big statement.

 

MS: So femmes would come in tuxedoes too?

 

HD: In suits at least.

 

MS: And a good number of them?

 

HD: Oh yeah.

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: Yeah, quite a lot. Oh yeah. They'd come and everyone had a favorite. Everyone would come and cheer for their beloved.

 

MS: Were there gay male/lesbian couples who would come?

 

HD: Gay male and lesbian couples?

 

MS: Right, right.

 

HD: Oh sure. Sure. They'd use lesbians as their escorts. Yeah. We often did that for the shows. We'd often get women dressed as men to be the escorts.

 

MS: And was the relationship between lesbians and gay men around drag culture pretty positive, would you say, in that time?

 

HD: That's a toughie because it changed. I'm not sure when it changed. Yeah, I would say it was very friendly back then. It was very, very easy because it was not a threat. I witnessed fights that were very ugly and bloody where lesbians would pummel bisexual men into the ground. I mean it was horrifying. And they did it because they knew that one of their girls had slept with one of the guys. Because as far as they were concerned, you just crossed the line. That was it. And the troops would come out. I mean these bulls that I don't even know where they lived, let alone what they did for a living. These creatures of the night would appear and you had better run in terror because they would kill anything that moved.

 

MS: You really saw these fights? Where?

 

HD: I saw them on 13th Street. I can see it like it was yesterday.

 

MS: On the street.

 

HD: It was horrifying. On the streets. They would gang up on whoever they decided was the person who had done this terrible deed and just beat the living daylights out of him.

 

MS: Are you saying that gay men and lesbians got along as long there was no...?

 

HD: As long as there was no hanky panky.

 

MS: Hanky panky?

 

HD: Absolutely. Absolutely. And therefore the drag end was perfectly harmless because oh, they're just wearing dresses.

 

MS: And for the sixties, no accusations that drag was anti-woman, was sexist?

 

HD: Nope. That didn't happen 'til the '70s. It happened with the politically correct stuff, which bored me anyway. I never had a problem with it, that's for sure.

 

MS: Uhhuh. Well maybe just to stay for a little bit longer in the '60s, hotel management was...?

 

HD: Perfectly cool to me. But see, I'm not patting myself on the back. I had a way of approaching these people, O.K.? I don't know if I learned it from Jackie or not. I'm really not sure because I never went with him to rent the ballrooms. That was on his thing.

 

MS: I'm afraid your glasses are going to fall.

 

HD: I didn't go in and say, “Hi, we're having a fashion show.” No. “This is a costume thing. We're going to be boys in dresses. There will be no nonsense about which bathrooms anybody can use. You'll get over yourself. I'm renting the place for the night. Whatever it is, it is. If they're standing over the urinal with a gown hiked up, get over yourself, O.K.? I don't care. They have to pee, they have to pee.”

 

MS: And you were really totally out there.

 

HD: Absolutely. And I would come in as bold as I could be. I was very polite about it, but I also had money in my hand. And they would check me out and find out that it was dead serious. I'd pay up front and it was a done deal. And it built from this little nucleus. It just grew to the monster it is now. But I never had a problem.

 

MS: But let me ask you something further I guess about the hotels, because I know there was some conflict with the gay movement, with the Janus Society renting at least some of the hotels for lectures?

 

HD: Probably.

 

MS: Can you figure out what the difference was?

 

HD: Well they probably scared them. You see I was always well-liked in the theater part of Philadelphia, in music. I was known. And I was very well-known in a straight society, O.K.? That was even bigger in the '70s, but there was all this risque shit, but I did it with a touch of class. And it was all fun. That's all I ever talked about was fun. So that's me. And here comes the Mattachine or whoever and they're like grrrr serious stuff and we've got to. They used the word homosexual and I kept saying gay. I guess they scared them. I don't know.

 

MS: When did you first encounter the gay movement? Do you remember having first heard about it or who you first met in it?

 

HD: Yeah. I can remember a bookstore at 13th and Spruce in the basement.

 

MS: Jay's Place?

 

HD: Maybe. And I can remember the books. Janus.

 

MS: Do you mean Jim, James Mitchell? Jimmy Mitchell?

 

HD: No, no, no, no, no, no. Drum.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Thin blond man that ran the shop. And Kiyoshi.

 

MS: But Kiyoshi came on the scene a little bit later.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: But he was around then.

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: I can remember him then because he was in Rittenhouse Square.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And that's how he and I first became friends.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And then I used to go in this little tiny bookshop and he was in there.

 

MS: Oh, in this bookstore on Spruce.

 

HD: On Spruce, yeah. I met him there.

 

MS: So Janus Society, did you ever go to a meeting?

 

HD: I probably did. I probably did and didn't find anyone attractive enough to sleep with.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: You know what I'm saying? I would go and I would listen and I would absorb it and say, “Yeah, I understand. Thank you very much. Now is there anyone here I want to sleep with? No thank you very much, I'll see you next time.” And I would go on cause I was looking for fun.

 

MS: Do you think you ever went to any of their lectures in the hotels?

 

HD: No. I probably wouldn't have done that.

 

MS: You remember a sit-in at Dewey's?

 

HD: Yes. I wasn't in it but I remember it. Yeah, oh yeah.

 

MS: Was that a Janus thing, as far as you knew?

 

HD: I don't know.

 

MS: Did you ever do the July 4th demonstrations at Independence Hall or hear about them?

 

HD: Nope, nope. I remember. I did hear about them yes. Yeah. I was busy. I was playing.

 

MS: Uhhuh. And you said before you knew Clark Polak.

 

HD: Yes, yes.

 

MS: I'm wondering, what can you tell me about him?

 

HD: God. You'd think I could dredge up a Clark Polak story.

 

MS: What did he look like?

 

HD: Mmhmm.

 

MS: Not sure?

 

HD: No, I'm drawing a blank. I could be confusing him with someone else, but it seems to me we were dating the same person.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And we joked about it. We just sort of giggled about it.

 

MS: Did he have kind of a reputation in the city as someone important?

 

HD: Oh yeah, yeah. People knew his name. People in the gay society knew his name.

 

MS: And what did they think of him?

 

HD: That he was doing great, that he had the guts to do what no one else did.

 

MS: Is that right?

 

HD: Yeah. Oh yeah.

 

MS: And what do you remember him doing? Anything in particular?

 

HD: I want to say writing.

 

MS: Well he was doing Drum magazine then.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: But do you think he was intervening with the police or with the press?

 

HD: I don't know.

 

MS: O.K.

 

HD: I don't know.

 

MS: Did you ever encounter Barbara Gittings in those years?

 

HD: Sure.

 

MS: And did people also know her?

 

HD: Oh yeah, sure. That was rare; she looked like an old married lady.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: See she wasn't a bull. She was just an ordinary looking lady.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: She had guts. Oh yeah. She was a name. She was a force to be reckoned with.

 

MS: Anyone apart from the two of them who was as well-known in the '60s?

 

HD: Tom somebody? No.

 

MS: But it sounds like no one's particularly coming to mind?

 

HD: No.

 

MS: Well, I guess still in the '60s the media started covering you.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: Philadelphia Magazine especially. How did that happen?

 

HD: It was all very weird. I don't know how that happened, Marc. It's incredible how it happened. It became like late '60s, early '70s, I like to refer to it as take a fag to lunch. O.K.? I became the darling of the Philly jetset or the rat pack or whatever you want to call it. The Harry J. Katz's and the Larry Field's and oh god the whole group of them. They just decided I was it. I was cool. And I got invited to everything. There wasn't an opening, there wasn't a party of any kind that I wasn't invited to. Now whether it was for shock value or they knew I'd bring an entourage that would knock their socks off. I mean my kids were always beautiful. Beautiful. And I dressed them, O.K.? Whether it was men or women or drags or whatever, I coordinated. And you knew if you invited me you'd get them. And we would show up in force and look fabulous. And maybe it was that. I don't know. Or maybe like I said, it was the fact that I could do it with a little bit of class. And we didn't leave remnants. You see we didn't make dirty things.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: We came in, we roused around, we looked fabulous, and [snaps] we're gone. There was maybe a sequin on the floor. And that's it. We're out of there.

 

MS: And what did I want to ask about that? Why then? Why late '60s? What was going on then, do you think, that made this happen?

 

HD: I think it was all part of the free love nonsense and everything else opening up. And them saying, “Well we're not going to go to a bathhouse to experience this. I mean we heard that Continental might be happening in New York and we heard about stuff, but we're straight and we can't go quite that far. But gee, look what we've got right in Philadelphia. Isn't this interesting? We can do this. We can experience this. Maybe there's a little hidden something going on in there and fine, I don't care. But as long as they wanted to feed us, treat us good, we'd be there.

 

MS: That was fine? And where were you finding sexual partners in these days? Everywhere?

 

HD: Everywhere. Everywhere. You see, I've always had luck in the fact that I was never just a bar queen. I still had my fingers in theater, professional theater, and in music, and in jewelry, and in the arts. And so I know so many different levels of people and my life takes me in a hundred places in the course of a week. And I'd just meet people.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I just did. I did better in broad daylight than I did in the bar.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I did fine in the bar, but walking down the street, hello.

 

MS: And how did that happen then?

 

HD: Oh, you had to walk Spruce Street. And the big cruising block of 18th and Delancy. That was it. That was just the place to go cruise at night, not during the day. At night. And that got cracked down by the police because of the neighbors. And you can't blame them. They couldn't sleep.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: It got really noisy there at night.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: It was pretty obnoxious.

 

MS: Did Philly have a gay neighborhood in the '60s?

 

HD: A little bit of Spruce Street, but that's about it.

 

MS: Which part?

 

HD: From Broad up.

 

MS: Broad west?

 

HD: From Broad west. Yeah. Nothing else was really that gay. Center City hadn't spread the way it has. Society Hill wasn't Society Hill yet. It was just down there.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And so it wasn't all that gay yet.

 

MS: Mmhmm. So really just, say, Spruce, Broad, and west. That's what you would think of as the gay neighborhood.

 

HD: Right.

 

MS: Was there a lesbian neighborhood in Philadelphia in the '60s?

 

HD: No. No. Now it's Germantown. No, we don't need to know about that [to cat].

 

MS: But not then?

 

HD: Nope.

 

MS: And yet, O.K., let me maybe press you a little bit there. Weren't most of the bars around 13th Street?

 

HD: Always.

 

MS: But you don't think of that as the gay neighborhood?

 

HD: No, because you couldn't afford to live there, you see. It was simply where you went to party.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And no one could afford to live there.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Nah.

 

MS: So Spruce Street was cheaper?

 

HD: Spruce Street and Pine Street had enough run-down little apartment buildings that the gays were comfortable enough there.

 

MS: And were gays playing, do you think, an important role in that kind of gentrification process?

 

HD: A hundred percent. Hundred percent. Sure. What would Center City be without them?

 

MS: And why do you think that happened?

 

HD: Because there's safety in numbers. Because gays were smart. And why not live where the theaters are, and the restaurants, and the movies, and everything else? Why not live close by? Why travel?

 

MS: And why gentrify?

 

HD: Because gays like things nicer. Just have better taste. It's a fact. I don't know if it's genes or not, but it's a fact. It just is. It's a truism. It happens everywhere.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Gay boys move in, [snap] there goes the neighborhood, there goes the real estate values. It's great. They fix it up.

 

MS: White and black or just white?

 

HD: In Center City, white. Not very much black.

 

MS: So was there any sort of enclave of black gays anywhere in the city?

 

HD: Not that I know of. No. No. I'm sure there might have been but I don't know where it was.

 

MS: Uhhuh. Did you ever walk into a black gay bar in the '60s?

 

HD: Oh yeah. Oh sure.

 

MS: What were they?

 

HD: Not in Philly, though. We didn't have one.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: But I went up to Harlem.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I was brave.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I had a ball. It was great. I had a blast. And danced my ass off.

 

MS: But never in Philly? Never a black gay bar?

 

HD: Uhhuh. But then there wasn't such a thing back then.

 

MS: And did you ever walk into a lesbian bar in Philly?

 

HD: Not in the '60s. Later on. In the '60s I probably would have been beat up.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: But later, yeah.

 

MS: And people talk a lot about butch-femme culture among lesbians in the '50s and '60s. Was there a parallel with gay men? Or not?

 

HD: Not really. Not really. There was, I'm sure, in the bedroom. But not out.

 

MS: What do you mean by that?

 

HD: The people would not stereotype themselves by dressing the way the women did. They were not as obvious. You had to sort of wonder, “Hmm, what's that guy going to be like when I get him horizontal?” But it wasn't so obvious at all, no.

 

MS: But you think people did have roles in bed?

 

HD: Well sure. Sure. And it was more common, I would say, between older and younger maybe, where the older man would think he was going to be the aggressor. I don't know.

 

MS: Were there words people would use then that are different from the words we use now?

 

HD: I don't think so. I don't think there's any difference.

 

MS: Uhhuh. Well I don't know: is there anything else you want to say about the '60s before we move to the '70s? Anything else that you think's really significant from those years that we haven't really covered either from drag culture or…?

 

HD: I don't think so. No. Because that was really the formative stuff for me.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And the memories are good, very good, but like I said, Rittenhouse Square was magic.

 

MS: Uhhhuh.

 

HD: Oh also Atlantic City was real important because none of us had a nickel. And someone would have a car and nine of us would get in the car and go down for the day. We were day-trippers. That's all we could afford. Who could afford gas? Who could afford the popsicle on the boardwalk or something. And it was just hysterical, because gay beach was insane. It was wonderful. And that had a lot to do with all my early stuff also. A lot. Wonderful times. And Atlantic City, before the casinos came, was Sodom and Gomorrah. It was insane and at one point there were eleven gay bars that didn't close. They never closed.

 

MS: Uhhuh. Were there any other places outside of the city that people would go to?

 

HD: Nope, that was it. Atlantic City was happening. There wasn't any reason to go anywhere else.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It had everything.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Bars, restaurants, beach, what else do you need? It was great.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And rooming houses for five bucks a night. I mean what else do you need?

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It was fabulous. Pshew.

 

MS: So what difference did Stonewall make? And actually why don’t you tell me: you said that you were actually at the Stonewall.

 

HD: I would go up every weekend for about six months. And I found Stonewall because it had go-go boys. And it wasn't a very big bar. It was a nice size, nice little dance floor. And I would hang out. There weren't many Philadelphians there, so that was good for a change. I could go up and not be recognized and just be another guy in the bar. And I started having this affair with this one go-go boy. And I was there that night. And a little bit of trouble started. Not a lot. There was a little bit of ruckus. And I wasn't aware of it. I was talking to someone. And he came over and he said, “There's trouble. Come with me.” And we left out the side door, the back door, I don't remember, but we did not have a confrontation with police at any time. We simply left. Went back to his apartment. Much later, it was sometime in the morning, he gets a call--we're asleep-- from a friend saying, “There's this fight and the cops and blah, blah, blah.” And he woke me up and he told me. “Oh my god. Well what do we do?” And he said, “Well let's go see it.” And we went back down there and there was all the carryings-on. And we joined in throwing rocks and bottles and being generally obnoxious. And that was that. And that was the beginning of the beginning. And I don't claim to be part of the persons who first fought back. I wasn't one of the original drag queens that was there. None of that. But I was there. And the point I always try to make is you always hear, “Oh, I was there.” (A) the bar wasn't that big.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: O.K. (B) I had been going for six months at least. So I knew the faces. I knew the regulars. And (C), it was basically a cruise bar. It was not really a hustler's bar so much. It was very much of a cruisy place. And the go-go guys just sort of helped keep that atmosphere going. And these people should remain nameless, some of the people I know who claim to be there, but these people in particular were about as asexual as you can get. What the hell were they supposed to be doing in there? I don't think so. And they sure as hell weren't there that night cause I was.

 

MS: So you've been distinguishing between a cruise bar, a hustler bar, and maybe other kinds.

 

HD: Well I'm sure there was some hustling going on in there too because it was a very wild place. It was a wild place.

 

MS: No, no. I think I know what you mean.

 

HD: I was never hustled in there. I was the same age as everybody else there and we were all just there for the same reason, to have a great time. You would occasionally see an older gentleman walk in and I'm sure there was some of that going on. But to me, I didn’t think of it as a hustler bar.

 

MS: But could you say what the difference was between a hustler bar and a cruise bar?

 

HD: Well a hustler bar is simply going to be pretty obvious, like a meat rack. The older guys come in, hang at the bar, and wait for the hustlers to come up to them. “Will you buy me a drink lah, lah, lah, lah, lah. Do you charge by the hour?” I don't know, whatever it is hustlers say. And there it is.

 

MS: And a cruise bar?

 

HD: And a cruise bar is much friendlier atmosphere, much easier, and hopefully you are able to have a conversation without screaming over disco music. A cruise bar normally has a round or oval bar where everyone can see everyone else.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Or at least a full wall of mirrors.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: That's what a good cruise bar is about.

 

MS: And are there any other types of bars that you would distinguish?

 

HD: Well there's strictly disco, where you can't possibly have a conversation. Be too high and dance too much.

 

MS: So what was the reaction in Philly to Stonewall? Did people find out about it immediately?

 

HD: Oh absolutely.

 

MS: How did they find out?

 

HD: It was just telegraph, telephone, tell a faggot. I mean it spread like wildfire here. It was like amazingly fast. And was PGN there? Not quite yet.

 

MS: No.

 

HD: Right, not quite yet. Word just spread instantly. [interruption] And here's what I remember the most. Here's what really stays in my heart. The first march, which came a year, was it, to the day?

 

MS: In Philly or New York?

 

HD: New York.

 

MS: New York, yeah, a year later.

 

HD: I was there. I wouldn't have missed it for nothing. I had a million friends in New York and Philly as well, but I had really gained a nice little nucleus of some beautiful friends, most of whom I still see all the time. In fact I'm seeing one of them next weekend. And I wouldn't have missed it for anything. And I was right out in front marching with everybody else and just having the time of my life. And in those years we ended up in the park. We marched uptown and into where? Sheep’s Meadow or whatever?

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And it was like a be-in, but it was like more of a love-in. And everybody was kissing and hugging and I mean I couldn't stop crying because of this feeling. Because you really knew this was the beginning of something. This something, oh my god, is really happening here. This is like geez Louise. And everyone got along. There wasn't the crap that I witnessed years later.

 

MS: What was the something that was happening?

 

HD: The something that was happening, Marc, was that people of all ages and all creeds were standing up and saying, “Yeah, so?” That's what was happening.

 

MS: Now the way you've described yourself, though, you had been saying that earlier.

 

HD: Well I had, but I had never felt a chorus behind me.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And now I did. And I was looking at all kinds of people of all ages. And I was seeing old, very old men and women standing there crying at how exciting this was. And I was crying with them. I was no good.

 

MS: So what was the mood in Philadelphia? What was similar about it; what was different about it?

 

HD: Jubilation. Same here. Same here. I don't remember when the first parade was here. I was there, but I don't remember when it was. But it sure was a “we're gonna' try really hard” kind of parade. I mean we just did our best. It was what? Four hundred of us and compared to forty thousand, but....

 

MS: And why do you think it was so small here?

 

HD: This is a much more closety town. I think it goes in degrees, New York being the most out city and then you go down to Philly and then you go down to Washington, where everyone's totally in the closet because they all work for the government. So stupid. And then you go from New York to Boston and they're still pretty wild up there. And then you go further up and forget it. They're all in the closet. So I don't know. It seems to be this epicenter of gayness in Manhattan. And it just goes from there.

 

MS: And why do you think Philly's more closeted?

 

HD: Don't have a clue. Don't have a clue. I don't think it is as much anymore but back then it was. I don't know. People were just not ready to take a chance. I don't know. I never thought about it actually.

 

MS: Mmhmm. O.K. Just sort of accepted.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: But you said there was this feeling right after Stonewall that something important had happened.

 

HD: Mmhmm.

 

MS: So what difference might it have made in anybody's life here in Philly?

 

HD: Well it gave people ideas. I mean there were people, like I'm sure people have brought up Tommi Avicolli.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: O.K. Radical Fairies and all that. And there were people like him around, and the early Mark Segal, that were willing to take a chance. Willing to say, “No, I don't think so. You're not going to stop me from doing anything.” I loved that. Yeah, go ahead, good for you.

 

MS: And were you involved in any of the political groups in the '70s?

 

HD: Not involved. I would march with them.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I would help them out, I would do something, I would show up for a rally. They tell me to show up in something outrageous, I would. It was not a problem. Would I then go off to a meeting with them? No. No. I was there for the fun aspect.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I would do everything I could do. I'd bring my whole crowd.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And we'd all look fabulous and make them look glamorous and then let them go off and be serious.

 

MS: And now how was drag culture changing in the '70s?

 

HD: Well what started to happen was that it was no longer correct. That's when this, as I said earlier, this crap with flannel shirts, 501s, the whole San Francisco look.

 

MS: Was that right after Stonewall?

 

HD: It was probably '70, '69 is when it started.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: To seep east. San Francisco was just so boring. Unbelievable.

 

MS: And you're talking about the clone look?

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: And everything masculine and all of that?

 

HD: The whole clone look started.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And of course, it started slower here, but people picked up on things and you started to see it around. And I would go out and I would see bars full of clones. And these queens standing with their thumb in the exact right part of their jean pocket or something. And I'd say, “Hi girlfriend,” and they'd say, “My name's Richard.” And I'd say, “Honey, I've got pictures of you in a dress. What is this stuff? What are you doing?” “Well I really don't what you're talking about.” You're trying to pick up some guy and here I am kidding around with them and they're like [clears throat] “I don't know.”

 

MS: But you were just describing everything being so liberated at the time of Stonewall.

 

HD:  It was. But this was part of the liberation. Because the liberated part of it was, “Well I'm dressing like a clone.” That was them, not me. “But I'm gonna' wear a colored hanky in my back pocket to let people know what I really want to do.” Oh well aren't you wild? So for them that worked.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And it's a disgusting thing, but there was a money thing that happened. Well they were all coming of age; they all had professional jobs. You know what I'm saying? This whole movement, this whole gay youth, were now in their twenties and thirties and they had some buying power. And so they were supporting their own bars. And the bars had muscle because of the money. And it's just this snowball thing. And so that started to support itself. And I can remember some very ugly things in New York, not here, but in New York, where I witnessed clones and very uptight lesbians putting down drag queens. “Well we don't want you representing us. We don't want you in the front of the parade.” And drag queens saying, “Well excuse me honey, if it wasn't for me, we wouldn't have had Stonewall.”  “Well, yes, but we don't want the media taking a picture of you.”

 

MS: But you said that kind of conflict didn't happen in Philly?

 

HD: Very little.

 

MS: Why?

 

HD: Very, very little. We were friendlier here.

 

MS: Really?

 

HD: We didn't have that attitude. There was a little bit but very little.

 

MS: And the lesbian opposition, was it feminist?

 

HD: Yes.

 

MS: Was that part of the picture?

 

HD: Yes. Yes.

 

MS: But again, you didn't see that happening so much here?

 

HD: No. I saw it. I witnessed it. I once was taken on some god-awful TV talk show to defend drag queens against these feminist lesbians. And I mean, as the old joke goes, you look like something no one would want to lay anyway, male or female. They were just these creatures. “You're making fun of women.” “We are? We're trying to be glamorous. Look at yourself.” I mean, I ripped a women to shreds on the air. It was great.

 

MS: Do you remember what show that was?

 

HD: I was on a lot of talk shows in those days.

 

MS: So drag was being criticized?

 

HD: Yeah, in a certain corner. Just not a lot. Not enough to bother me, that's for sure, but in a certain corner. Yeah.

 

MS: Do you think there was any validity to the argument? Were any of the drags sexist?

 

HD: No. No. Not in this town. Not at all. It was for fun here. Once a year they put on a dress, jumped around, shaved their arms, do what they do. It was for fun.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: That's all it was. No.

 

MS: I'm interested too in what you were saying about gays becoming wealthier and settling down. And so did that make the bar scene and the restaurant scene and all that change?

 

HD: Absolutely. Sure. They saw the power. They saw what could happen, what could take place. Oh absolutely. Yeah. And it happened without us being aware of it. It just sort of happened. There were so many of us.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And again, that's because Center City started to grow.

 

MS: Yeah. So to repeat the question from before, what was the gay neighborhood in the '70s?

 

HD: Well then it was everywhere. If you were in town, you were in a gay neighborhood. Because the straights that lived in town were gonna' be hip. They had to be hip. They couldn't live under a rock anymore. They had to look around them and say, “Oh, O.K. I see.”

 

MS: So literally, river to river?

 

HD: River to river. Absolutely.

 

MS: And what would you say from North to South?

 

HD: South Street to Chestnut. Didn't go any further.

 

MS: And any particular strong cores? Or really the whole thing?

 

HD: Not really, but it was interesting because that's when a whole bunch of us were involved in the early South Street renaissance.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Fourth and South, Lickety, Black Banana. Early, early days. I was part of all that junk. And it was wonderful. But we were gay artists. That was another faction that we were about.

 

MS: Right.

 

HD: And so the gays that lived at Broad and Spruce had no problem going down to Fourth and South for a cocktail, knowing that it wasn't a gay bar per se, but it certainly was very hip.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And that was the beginning of the hip stuff. That was the beginning of disco and that was the beginning of the mixes. And so that was fine. It was fine with everybody.

 

MS: Any other little enclaves like that in Center City?

 

HD: Not that I can think of.

 

MS: People talk, for example, about this, Antique Row, Pine Street.

 

HD: Well yeah, but that's because apartments are very cheap here. Like school affordability kind of thing.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: No, no one particular area.

 

MS: And any other parts of the city, a gay neighborhood or a lesbian neighborhood?

 

HD: Nope.

 

MS: In the '70s?

 

HD: No.

 

MS: You said it before, something about Germantown.

 

HD: Germantown has become a major lesbian area and so has Mount Airy.

 

MS: And when do you think that was?

 

HD: I think that was maybe later '70s.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Maybe. Cause it was very affordable and yet still clean and you could get fixer-uppers.

 

MS: What about Fairmont? Was that a gay enclave?

 

HD: No.

 

MS: Any place in West Philly?

 

HD: Mmhmm [dissent]. A lot of gays lived out there. I knew a lot of guys who lived out there, but only because it was cheap.

 

MS: Out there in West Philly.

 

HD: In West Philly but only because it was cheaper. They did not want to be gay in their own neighborhood.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: They had to jump on the bus and come in town.

 

MS: Art Museum area?

 

HD: Area? No. No. No. That wasn't 'til much later.

 

MS: Mmhmm. O.K.

 

HD: I was a pioneer for that too.

 

MS: Uhhuh. So let's see, what else do I want to ask? So you were still doing parties in the early '70s?

 

HD: Oh god yeah. Yes. From the minute I started parties, I've never stopped.

 

MS: Uhhuh. And still at the same hotel, you said?

 

HD: Well they changed from hotel, depending on the size of the crowd. I had it at the Convention Center for two years, for god sakes. We had a room at the Bellevue, but the fire marshal came and closed me down because there were too many people. We now range between two and three thousand for Halloween.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It's insane. It's totally insane. I can't talk to everybody. I try, but I can't.

 

MS: Do you think drag is bigger in this city than other cities?

 

HD: Nope. It's much smaller now.

 

MS: Smaller now.

 

HD: Much smaller now.

 

MS: But then?

 

HD: Then? Oh yes, yes. Then I think we rivaled Atlanta and L.A. in the number per capita of drags. Now, unfortunately, it's way down. Way down. It'll come back. Everything goes in cycles.

 

MS: Why was it so popular then, do you think, in Philly?

 

HD: Cause it was fun. It was fun. People had money; they could afford a little bit of extra stuff, the costume or whatever. It was part of the fun. I mean, there was nothing but parties then.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: It was a partying era.

 

MS: What were the big places then? Drag or non-drag, but what were the big discos? You mentioned before....

 

HD: D.C.A.

 

MS: D.C.A.?

 

HD: D.C.A, absolutely, which is now the Two Four. That was everyone’s home. I mean we all lived there and it was an after hours club open 'til four.

 

MS: Men, women?

 

HD: Men and women. Very mixed.

 

MS: Drag, non-drag?

 

HD: Didn't matter.

 

MS: Black, white?

 

HD: Yup. Very mixed, very wild.

 

MS: Do you know who owned that?

 

HD: Cliff Shute.

 

MS: How do you spell the last name?

 

HD: S-H-U-T-E. Cliff Shute and Bobby Jones owned it forever.

 

MS: Gay owned?

 

HD: Nope.

 

MS: They were straight?

 

HD: Well Bobby was gay, but he didn't own it for long cause he sold out to Cliff. Cliff was one of the hippest straight men I know. We're still very good friends. He owned a lot of things in Atlantic City as well.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And that's where we originally became friendly.

 

MS: People talk about a shift from straight owned bars to gay owned bars or a shift from Mafia bars to gay bars.

 

HD: Mmhmm. Definitely. Definitely.

 

MS: When did that happen?

 

HD: '80s.

 

MS: '80s?

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: So things were still straight owned?

 

HD: Now don't ask me why. Whether there weren't any gay men with enough money to own enough bars. There were one or two.

 

MS: So I guess you mentioned the Allegro must have been an exception.

 

HD: That was one of the first. Yeah, first and only.

 

MS: And was it Mafia?

 

HD: No. Not at all.

 

MS: Independent straight business people?

 

HD: Oh do you mean in general was it Mafia?

 

MS: Yeah.

 

HD: Or was that bar Mafia?

 

MS: No, no, I mean in general.

 

HD: In general? Oh yeah. A little bit. A little bit. Maybe not totally. Maybe they'd help them out. They'd help them in whatever way they did. I don't really know.

 

MS: All right. And who were some of the other bar owners? Do you remember? Back then?

 

HD: Not back then, no. No. I didn't know bar owners until much later.

 

MS: O.K.

 

HD: When they all wanted me in their bars.

 

MS: So you said D.C.A. and what else was popular in the '70s?

 

HD: Drury Lane, which was on Drury Lane.

 

MS: What kind of bar was that?

 

HD: That was a wrinkle room.

 

MS: Which means?

 

HD: Older men, fancy restaurant, overpriced-food. Was just a place to be gay. There always has to be one piano bar.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: There's got to be.

 

MS: What were the most popular discos?

 

HD: Steps. That was crazy. That place was wonderful. Steps. It was definitely one of the most popular places ever to happen, especially back then.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: That was crazy. I had some wild nights there. Crazy place.

 

MS: You mentioned Second Story before.

 

HD: Well as you know from the article, I basically designed and built the bar and I'm very proud of it. And there were some insane times. That was craziness. And that was kind of the end of that crazy era. It became the hottest spot in Philly. And then they opened the basement and it became a gay black bar after hours. Extremely popular. And then I left and eventually it became straight. That's because this is Fickledelphia.

 

MS: What do you mean by that?

 

HD: Other bars open, people wanted to go see. They're not loyal in this city.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: They're not loyal. To a bar, that is.

 

MS: And remind me, who owns Second Story?

 

HD: The Giftman brothers. Barry and Wayne Giftman. Straight guys, very cool, very hip, and very smart.

 

MS: So all the straight owners, did you feel like they were making money off the gay community in a negative way?

 

HD: No. They were providing a wonderful place.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Especially the Giftmans. I mean they spent millions. They went overboard to make it wonderful.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Gorgeous. All this. Fabulous. I mean the sound system in that bar, people came from around the country to see it, to experience it. The man who did the sound system in there was the man who did the first earth to moon transmission.

 

MS: Mmhmm!

 

HD: He did Barbra Streisand's Central Park concert. I mean they went top drawer in that club.

 

MS: Mmhmm. And were things between lesbians and gay men better in the '70s or worse, would you say?

 

HD: I think they were about par, because here again there's a whole new generation coming up so you've got a whole new group of women. It was much more mixed. The bars were pretty well mixed, because I think there was one tiny lesbian bar then, maybe. But the women that liked to dance and hang out with the gay men would go to the one lesbian bar and feel bored.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Because they were bulls. And they'd think, “Well I'm not like that.” And so they would go back to the men's bars.

 

MS: Mmhmm. And we didn't talk before about Harlow, I realized, from the late '60s.

 

HD: My child.

 

MS: Yes, can you tell me all about Harlow? And can you get me an interview with her?

 

HD: Oh god, that's almost impossible. She is not a recluse, but she's reached a point in her life, Marc, where unless you want to pay her a lot of money, she just doesn't want to do it. She doesn't want to do it. She had her major heyday.

 

MS: How did you first meet her?

 

HD: She was national news.

 

MS: How did you first meet her?

 

HD: She was brought to me in my first little shop. She was seventeen. I have pictures. Pretty little boy, pretty little boy that nature just had made too pretty.

 

MS: Mid-'60s, this was? Early '60s?

 

HD: Yeah. Early '60s.

 

MS: Early '60s.

 

HD: And she was brought to me. She has a number of gay cousins who are all very successful men. And they just knew this person had to wear a dress. And they brought her to me. And I said, “Hmm, wow!” And we put her in her first dress and stuck a blond wig on her and she looked like Jean Harlow. It was scary.

 

MS: So did you name her that?

 

HD: I cannot take credit, no. There was a group of us and it was sort of a party and it all just sort of happened.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I don't know who the one was who said the word, but whoever said it, we all said, “Yes. Oh my god, yes.” And we took her to some little drag contest out in Upper Darby, believe it or not.

 

MS: Is that the C.R.?

 

HD: The C.R.? It was in that area, but they had actually rented a ballroom.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Up in that neck of the woods. It was some tacky little place, like AFL-CIO. You know what I'm saying? Kind of like that kind of thing. But hell, it was a place to have a drag ball. It was amazing. And we took her out there and I have pictures from that first drag competition. And she had some stiff competition, but she won it hands down. And that was the beginning. She won every single thing from there on. She became a monster very quickly.

 

MS: What did she win? Where else did you take her?

 

HD: Took her up to New York. Anywhere I took her she won. But then she won every competition in Philadelphia to a point where it was stupid, didn't even let her enter anymore. We just made her a judge. “You're a judge. You can't enter; you're much too pretty.” And so then she became part of the family and of course I brought her to Sabrina. And Sabrina would take her off to these events here and there. And then to the parties at the house, at the mansion. And then one day, honestly over breakfast, just as a joke, just as a joke, I said, “You know what, Jackie? Honest to god, anything you do is great. You do these amazing things with drag balls. Why don't you just do a Miss America drag? Just do for the whole country because you're so good at it.” And he looked at me. Hmmm. And the next thing you know, he was in New York. He gave up Philadelphia totally, which is when I stepped in. And said that's it, “We're going national. This is it, we're doing it, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.” And that was it. And I'd go up every week and help out. And the scene in the film that I'm in that they didn't cut--I'm in the background here and there, but the one scene of me--there's one cameo. I'm sitting in the throne chair backstage before it's dragged out onstage for the queen. And I'm holding the crown that's going to be stuck on whoever's head, which I had made for the contest. It's all rhinestones. And someone had broken it backstage and I arrived from Philadelphia with my bags and I'm running around like a lunatic and the band's warming up. And Jackie's screaming in his dressing room, “This fucking thing is broken! Get Henri, get Henri!” And so they thrust this crown into my hands and say, “Fix it!” I don't have any tools. And I don't remember if I took a bobby pin out of somebody's head or some chewing gum. I don't know what the hell I did, but whatever I did, I wired this poor thing back together so it looked O.K. And in the shot on the film that they kept, I'm just sitting there holding this thing.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: This poor thing.

 

MS: Whose idea was the film?

 

HD: Grove Press. Evergreen magazine. It was kind of like the Vanity Fair of its time. They came along and decided this was a very good idea.

 

MS: I don't remember if it said anything. Where was it held?

 

HD: Town Hall. Town Hall in New York. And see Jackie had done in New York what I had done here. He had gotten immediately snatched up by the jetset. So he was able to, at this ball, have Andy Warhol and Terry Sutherland and just all these names. Rona Jaffe hung out with us. She always had coffee with us every Sunday. He was the darling of that set. And so maybe they leaked it, and someone told someone who told someone else who decided this is a good idea. We should follow these people around for a couple weeks.

 

MS: Now there are stories about a few celebrities in Philadelphia who some people say are gay.

 

HD: Mmhmm.

 

MS: But a lot of people aren't necessarily willing to say it on the record. And one of the stories concerns Harlow, right? And was it Jack Kelly?

 

HD: Jack Kelly? He dated her simply because he liked the shock value. And she really looked like his sister. She was gorgeous; she was a drop-dead beauty. And he loved all the attention he was getting. I don't think they ever had sex. I really don't think so. And if they did, as far as he was concerned, he was being straight.

 

MS: Was this while he was on City Council?

 

HD: I don't know. I don't know those dates.

 

MS: O.K.

 

HD: I don't know.

 

MS: And just maybe while we're on the subject of local figures, there are rumors also about Frank Rizzo, Jr.

 

HD: As far as I know, he is gay. I've never met the man, so I can't venture an opinion. I think there was a nephew that is gay and is out. I'm pretty sure. So someone may have confused that with the Rizzo family, blah, blah.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: But I never met Jr., so I don't know.

 

MS: And then Henry McIlhenny?

 

HD: McIlhenny was gay as a goose. Oh absolutely. And he didn't make any bones about it.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: He had wonderful private parties in his mansion on the Square with just nothing but beautiful call-boys. But he didn't make any bones about it. Not at all.

 

MS: Any other comparably well-known people?

 

HD: No. No. Philly never had that kind of closetiness as far as celebs were concerned. No.

 

MS: So Harlow left Philadelphia sometimes in the '70s, right?

 

HD: She left to go live in New York with Sabrina after the film was made. Actually just a little before and then she stayed for a couple years with him.

 

MS: Ah. Uhhuh.

 

HD: Because life was good. Life was very good. She was the darling. She was on all kinds of talk shows. She was on David Susskind, for Christ's sake.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: And the film won the Cannes Film Festival.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: For best documentary. And they flew her there and there she was. And she is working on a book as well, which is another reason she doesn't want to talk to anybody.

 

MS: Oh.

 

HD: She was at the party where Sharon Tate was killed. She was in L.A. doing that jetset scene.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: They were happening. And she was very much the darling of a lot of stuff.

 

MS: And then she moved back?

 

HD: She came back here. They opened the club around her. That was big.

 

MS: That was Harlow's. But she didn't own it, did she?

 

HD: No. She doesn't own her shoes. She never owned anything. She never had any money.

 

MS: So she was the...?

 

HD: She was the figurehead. She was paid very well. And they paid for all her designer gowns and all the rest of it. And she stood up there nightly in a beautiful white gown and a gardenia behind her ear and carried a glass of champagne. That's all she wanted to do. Get up at two; start being made up.

 

MS: And when did she have the sex change?

 

HD: Before the bar opened. Just as the club was opening. That's what it was about.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: The owner of the club paid for her change.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: She had gone as far as she could on her own and couldn't afford to do the whole business and then....

 

MS: Was this at that Hopkins Center or was it somewhere else. Did she go to Europe? Or do you remember?

 

HD: Oh no, she had it done at Johns Hopkins.

 

MS: She did?

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: And do you remember around when that would have been?

 

HD: Early '70s.

 

MS: O.K. And was it a big deal when she had her sex change?

 

HD: It was a big deal because of her beauty. There was a lot of sex changes then, especially in Philly. Uh! So many boys were cutting it off, I can't tell you.

 

MS: Really?

 

HD: Oh my god! Every time I turned around someone else was doing it.

 

MS: What do you think that was all about?

 

HD: I don't have a clue. To this day I don't have a clue. And they're all still fine and happy and most of them are married and whatever. But her celebrity was because of her beauty. I mean there were other sex changes but they didn't look like her. She was Grace Kelly.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Absolutely Grace Kelly. Gorgeous. And people were stunned by her beauty.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: I mean straight, gay, whatever, they just whew, they'd finally meet her and gawk. They would gawk; they couldn't get enough of her. So I guess that's the reason.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: Well I want to make sure you tell your Bicentennial stories. So what were you doing around the time of the Bicentennial?

 

HD: I had a nightclub of my own, which was my downfall. That was my downfall. That was the end of me.

 

MS: What was that called?

 

HD: It was called Heaven. It was the largest club in the state of Pennsylvania, square footage wise. It was wonderful and wild, of course.

 

MS: Where?

 

HD: It was at 20th and Sansom. What was it called in those days? Sansom Village? It was down underground. And there was an underground parking lot. It was this huge, huge, huge area that had been a shopping mall in the late '60s, early '70s, for hip clothing, for real cool stuff. And it was sitting fallow. And it had become a black bar. And the owners approached me and said, “Do you want this?” And I saw the space.

 

[interruption]

 

MS: So we were talking about Heaven. And I'm assuming this is after Second Story had closed down?

 

HD: Nom this is before Second Story.

 

MS: Oh, it's before Second Story.

 

HD: Before Second Story. Up to that point I just gave parties and made jewelry and was a very happy little person going along, doing my thing. This opportunity came along. Prior to this, a number of bars around town had hired me, paid me very well, to design them, to design dance floors, to design light shows, stuff. I was very involved. And then there were clubs that would pay me to just be there, to just show up with my entourage. And then there were clubs that would pay me to turn the place gay. I'd come in and I'd say, “O.K., you're gay now.” And we'd all come in and make it fabulous. So I had a lot of bar experience of different kinds, but I didn't want a bar; I wanted a club. I wanted a show bar. I wanted live performances and a dance floor. And I wanted to incorporate all of the things that I knew how to do. So they came to me; they presented this to me. And I said yes. And it took every nickel I had in the world. And I did this. And it was in '75. So obviously we were doing it for the Bicentennial. This was gonna' be like it, have this amazing place that was gonna' be totally cool for certain people to come to. Because of the shows, because of the drag shows. And we had people like Mabel Mercer and Holly Woodlawn and Lynn Carter. And we had booked Georgie Jessel. We wanted a whole cross-section of interesting live shows. And that's what it was about.

 

MS: And what do you mean it was going to be for the Bicentennial?

 

HD: Well we wanted to get on our feet in '75 so that when the Bicentennial came, which we thought was going to be this big deal, the tourists would flock.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Because as has been proven through history, drag clubs make a lot of money with tourists.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: They eat it up. And I had a whole chorus line that were also waiters. And some worked in drag, some didn't. And then there were women that looked like drag queens. And they all had to be able to sing and they all had to be able to dance. It was a very talented group of kids. And we had a blast. It was great. For seven months, eight months? I don't remember. And it wasn't clicking [snaps three times] as fast as the original backers wanted it to and they closed me down. Just threw me out. I lost everything.

 

MS: Had you put a lot of money into it?

 

HD: Everything I had in the world. I lost it all.

 

MS: Before the Bicentennial happened?

 

HD: Uhhuh. Well sort of January 1st. That was the end of it. And I went through a period of nothing. And then along came Second Story.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: So the timing couldn't have been better. They just really saved me. They pulled me right out of this pit I'd fallen into. And gave me carte blanche, said do whatever you want. Build this place.

 

MS: And do you remember around the July 4th celebrations, did you do anything special that year? I know there were celebrations; there were protests.

 

HD: Mmmm. No.

 

MS: Nothing in particular?

 

HD: No. Nothing I can think of. I'm sure I went to something. I'm sure there was a lot of parties.

 

MS: But then you did this big Mandate feature.

 

HD: Yup. They came to me as we were opening Second Story, in fact. That's about when they found me.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: They didn't find me because of Second Story; they found me because of my parties. They knew of my parties and contacted me and blah, blah, blah, photographer came down. And they had me set the whole thing up.

 

MS: And they called it "Philadelphia Freedom." Or was that your idea?

 

HD: It was their idea.

 

MS: Their idea? And how did you get models all over the Philadelphia historic buildings and sculptures?

 

HD: I've done that my whole life. I just do. My posters for Halloween and other parties used to always be photos. Over the years they'd be montages and then they became drawings. And they're different every year. But they always used to be photos, and usually of myself and a lot of friends. And one of my absolute first ones I did was on the steps of the old library down here on South Broad Street, the Old Ridgeway, which is now going to become the School for Performing Arts, whatever.

 

MS: Mmmm.

 

HD: And it wasn't planned. I had a huge party at my house the night before and most of these people stayed all night. And it was dawn and we were all still partying and having a blast. And I said, “You know what? You all look great. Let's go.” And I grabbed a bunch of costumes and about thirty friends. We went down there and stood on the steps of the library and took this amazing photo of just every kind of person you can imagine.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: But there were people going to church going hmmm. But I've always done that.

 

MS: But those photos weren't used for the Mandate article, or were they?

 

HD: No, no, no. That was much before the article.

 

MS: And did you just get local guys to model the clothes?

 

HD: Mmhmm. That's never been a problem.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I've always had a stable of gorgeous men. They find me.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And I give them what they want. I mean long before muscle men were happening, long before go-go boys were happening, I always just sort of knew the most beautiful people around. And I just said, “Oh, thank you very much,” and I'd keep their name and use them.

 

MS: Tough life.

 

HD: Tough life.

 

MS: Well maybe to ask a totally unrelated question, this is a question that I don't often ask, but do you think all of this had anything to do with your being Jewish?

 

HD: No. I don't think the Jewish part. I think if anything it had to do with the way I was brought up where I just loved everybody and I accepted everybody. But that's from my parents; that's not from the Jewish part.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: No. I don't think so. I love being Jewish. And I'm still very proud of it. I think it's a wonderful thing to be if you're going to be anything. But I don't think what I've done has anything to do with being Jewish. No.

 

MS: What do you love about it?

 

HD: I love the history of it. I love that you can't stop us. We're a small band, but boy are we tough.

 

MS: Now that sounds kind of gay.

 

HD: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was around when Israel was being formed. Boy, what a feeling that was.

 

MS: Uhhuh. You better be careful; you're gonna' reveal how old you are.

 

HD: I was an embryo.

 

MS: So it sounds like you're describing a sort of mix of things about the '70s. On the one hand, this new clone scene.

 

HD: Yeah that was definitely happening, but it didn't mean a thing to me. I was bored.

 

MS: But on the other hand it sounds like you're also saying there was a little bit of an explosion of good things happening in the '70s, too.

 

HD: Well there was. And it, as I said, unfortunately became a matter of money. There was the gay dollar all of the sudden. And it had never existed before. And wow.

 

MS: And why then? Why did the gay dollars become so important? Or powerful?

 

HD: I think because of the generation. I think because the twenty-somethings were finally of age.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: To have dispensable income. They weren't married with kids.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: So I think it was just a natural phenomenon.

 

MS: So it's the people who were teens and early twenties in the '60s?

 

HD: Yeah.

 

MS: Who were then late twenties and thirties in the '70s?

 

HD: Right. Exactly.

 

MS: That generation?

 

HD: Sure. And they had mostly, especially back then, grown up with a work ethic. So they were workers.

 

MS: So in a way I think you're talking about the baby boomers.

 

HD: Yeah. Very much so.

 

MS: See I was born in '63.

 

HD: Uhhuh.

 

MS: And so I'm technically part of the baby boom.

 

HD: Technically, right.

 

MS: But I'm still a little young.

 

HD: My lover was born in '63, excuse me.

 

MS: No, I mean young in the sense of what you're describing, that's really before my time.

 

HD: Uhhuh.

 

MS: Right?

 

HD: Right.

 

MS: I would have been sixteen in '79.

 

HD: Right.

 

MS: The last year that we're kind of talking about.

 

HD: Right. Yeah.

 

MS: But the baby boomers somewhat older than me.

 

HD: Right. Yes.

 

MS: That generation.

 

HD: Yes. Because that just seems to make sense to me, like we were then coming up and we all worked; we weren't on the dole; and we had money to spend. So we did.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I don't know. It just seemed to happen that way.

 

MS: What other things do you think gays contributed to the life of the city in the '60s and '70s?

 

HD: I think that gays were very much responsible for the restaurant renaissance.

 

MS: O.K.

 

HD: Very much responsible because gays love to eat well. And you can't have a decent restaurant without gay waiters. I don't know.

 

MS: You said before something about the Center City renaissance in general?

 

HD: Oh yeah. Absolutely. This dispensable income thing again, you know?

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It's boring, but it's true.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: It's totally true.

 

MS: Is that why it's men, not women, do you think? More gay men than lesbians?

 

HD: Yeah. Yeah. Lesbians make their share of money. They really do, but they're just not as free spending as men.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: They really aren't. I have many lesbian clients who are very loyal and wonderful, and who know their stuff. They're really, really good, but they're rare. The average lesbian that comes into my shop is looking for she doesn't care.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: She has only thirty dollars to spend and that's all she wants to spend. And she could just spend it at Strawbridge’s as well as here.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: She doesn't really care.

 

MS: And is that about women earning less money than men, or lesbians earning less money than gay men?

 

HD: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because the lesbians that I'm very friendly with, and I'm very friendly with quite a few of them, are not the norm. So I can't answer that.

 

MS: Mmhmm. O.K.

 

HD: I really don't have that answer.

 

MS: Well are there any major things we haven't covered that you wanted to talk about?

 

HD: I don't know. I don't remember all the things I said. I don't have a clue.

 

MS: We didn't talk much about bathhouses or your own house parties or public sex.

 

HD: Well bathhouses happened a lot in Philly. We had our share. They were pretty cool in the early days. They were quite wide open, pardon the expression.

 

MS: Which early days were these?

 

HD: I guess '70s. Late '60s, early '70s.

 

MS: Do you remember the names of any of them?

 

HD: The Barracks. Wild. The Club Baths, which is still around. That other one, which is now called, what the hell is it called?

 

MS: Do you mean Bellevue Baths?

 

HD: No. Club City? No.

 

MS: Camac Baths?

 

HD: Not the Camac, no. Right across the street. I'm drawing a blank. But that was pretty wild there for awhile.

 

MS: And you went to them?

 

HD: Oh yeah. Oh absolutely. I learned everything from the New York baths, so why shouldn't I come to Philadelphia and teach everybody what to do?

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: I was showing the ropes.

 

MS: What were you showing?

 

HD: It's my job. Showing them just what it was like. You don't bring a bunch of little silly, giggly queens into an orgy room. Keep them out. You know, it's obnoxious.

 

MS: So you didn't go with your entourage?

 

HD: No! Take one at a time.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: And if they were good, I took them up to New York.

 

MS: Uhhuh.

 

HD: Show them how the big boys played. I was a fixture in the Continental. I had a lover in New York for quite a while who started out making clothing for Bette Midler. And she was nobody. And he was nobody. And I was nobody. But I met him there and I said, “What are you doing here?” “I'm making clothes.” Yeah right. So I told him I've never been here before. And we had this very torrid affair for about a year. And I hung out with her. And she was no one. She was just this little lowly singer that performed in the bathhouse. And her piano player was Barry Manilow and he was nobody either.  My lover at the time went on to become a Cody Award Design winner and was on the cover of Bazaar for three years and just fabulous. He has since passed away. But I was a fixture in the Continental. That was that whole period of my time. I would give my parties here, but if I wanted to really get away and let my hair down, I'd go up there.

 

MS: Mmhmm.

 

HD: Because I was too easily recognized here. So I'd go up to New York to play. It was great.

 

MS: Public sex?

 

HD: For me? I couldn't. Not here. I'm too recognized. I know where it goes on.

 

MS: Where did it go on?

 

HD: I'm not a prude. In the bushes. Everywhere. Judy Garland Park.

 

MS: In the '60s? '70s?

 

HD: Oh no. Back then?

 

MS: Back then, yeah.

 

HD: I don't know. I wouldn't know back then. I didn't need to know back then. I was too busy.

 

MS: Movie theaters then?

 

HD: Probably, but again, it was not my scene. I didn't need it. I was having too much sex. I didn't even think about where to look for it. I'm sure it was going on. I heard stories about truck stops and stuff, but I didn't have a clue. And if someone asked me, no, no. Actually, my crowd never asked me because we were in our crowd. So it didn't have to happen.

 

MS: Maybe to finish off just maybe one last question. Were things better then or better now?

 

HD: Were things better then or better now? They were better then. Absolutely.

 

MS: Before and after Stonewall? '60s and '70s?

 

HD: Yup.

 

MS: What was better?

 

HD: The camaraderie, the freedom. It's too choreographed now. It's too catalogued. You have to go to the bar where the people wear what you wear. I find that very strange. Because being gay in the '60s and '70s was being unusual. A little different. You did your own thing. That's what being gay was. It's not that now. When I can walk into Giovanni's Room and see a book on gay astrology signs? What the hell is that? Or these Shocking Gray or these things which tell you what is the correct thing to wear or own in your home. Ah! What is that? We were very individual then. We had to be. And it was fun. It was all about fun. That's the big difference. Yup.

 

MS: Well any final thoughts, or do you want to leave it there?

 

HD: That's it.

 

MS: Well thank you very much.

 

HD: My pleasure.