"Pru Chis" (1943-2021), Interviewed June 11, 1994
by Marc Stein. Copyright © Marc Stein 2026. All rights reserved.
Introduction
I interviewed “Pru Chis” in his New York City apartment (in Queens) in 1994. I believe he contacted me to express interest in being interviewed after an announcement about my research was published in a SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environment) newsletter. He requested that I use the pseudonym “Pru Chis”; I was never able to determine the meaning or significance of the name. I corresponded with “Chis” in September/October 1996 (when he was living in Arizona) and in October 1997 (when he was living in Woodside, New York). In April 2022, when I wanted to reestablish contact in advance of posting this transcript on OutHistory, I found a September 2021 San Francisco Chronicle obituary indicating that he had died of Covid in San Francisco, where he had lived for more than a decade.
Before the taped interview began I collected the following biographical information:
Date of Birth: 16 September 1943
Place of Birth: Philadelphia
Place of Mother's Birth: Philadelphia
Mother's Occupation: Housewife
Place of Father's Birth: Philadelphia
Father's Occupation: Insurance Adjustor
Race/Ethnicity: White, Irish, German, American Indian
Religious Background: Roman Catholic
Class Background: Working Class
Residential History
1943-58: 8th and Huntington Park, Logan, Philadelphia
1958-61: Cottman St. and Whitaker Ave., Northeast Philadelphia (Burholme)
1961-66: Wilkes Barre
1966-68: North Africa
1968-69: Cottman St. and Whitaker Ave., Northeast Philadelphia (Burholme)
1969: Washington, D.C.
1969-72: Saudi Arabia
1972: Cottman St. and Whitaker Ave., Northeast Philadelphia (Burholme)
1972: New York City, New York
1973-76: Cottman St. and Whitaker Ave., Northeast Philadelphia (Burholme)
Work History
1961-66: College Student
1966-68: Peace Corps Teacher
1968-69: Philadelphia School Teacher
1969: Graduate Student
1969-72: Teacher
1972-76: Flight Attendant
Interview Transcript
Marc Stein Interview with "Pru Chis," June 11, 1994. Transcribed by Marc Stein.
MS: This is Marc Stein. It's June 11th, 1994, and I'm interviewing "Pru Chis" in his apartment in New York. And I just thought we could start by talking a little bit about your family, your early childhood years, and any early memories of sexually important events from those years. So why don't we start with your family?
PC: I have a very large family. Not by standards in those days, but by today's. Seven children. Five sisters, one brother. I was the youngest of the seven.
MS: You were born in 1943, right?
PC: That's right.
MS: And in what section of Philadelphia?
PC: Logan. Let's say Logan because the neighborhood I lived in most people don't know. I mean we knew what it was called, but Logan is the one that's better known.
MS: And what kind of a neighborhood was it?
PC: Oh white working class, pretty much.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: People who were first and second generation Americans mostly.
MS: And was your family first or second generation?
PC: Not on my mother's side. My mother's side went back pretty far on that side. My father was the son of immigrants.
MS: From what country?
PC: Ireland.
MS: Mhmmm. So was it an Irish household?
PC: Not really.
MS: No?
PC: No, we didn't wear in on our sleeves. We were American. I think that generation of immigrants really worked hard at becoming American.
MS: And what was it like growing up in the '40s? I guess you were a kid during, you probably don't remember too much about the World War Two years because you were two when it began.
PC: I have some images. I do remember I was very close, I had a very close physical relationship with my mother. You know I was breastfed and I was doted upon by my brother and my sisters particularly. And I guess I was what they call a menopause baby.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: So I was considered blessed. And my mother was a defense worker, according to my father. He said, and it's something that hurt me a little bit later on, he said, “You know we were just getting ahead of the game and making some good money for a change. And I knew I could get out of the hole and then you came along.”
MS: So were you much younger than your other siblings?
PC: Yeah pretty much so. I guess about seven years separated me and the next one.
MS: And how old was your mother when she had you?
PC: She was in her late thirties. In those days that was pretty late. And I was told I was born with a veil, which means, at least in Irish tradition, that some great things are going to happen to you. And that's the placenta over the face.
MS: Oh I see.
PC: It's called a veil. I kind of think some great things happened to me, but maybe others wouldn't. That's their business.
MS: Was it a happy home? Do you recall?
PC: Yeah, I think so. It was a good place to be raised. Yeah. We never were hungry. And there wasn't always a lot of money, but there was enough. We were well clothed and well cared-for. Yeah, I think so. And I think that pretty seriously, trying to be dispassionate about it.
MS: So you were a happy kid?
PC: I was pretty content, yeah. Yeah, I think I had a good upbringing.
MS: Were there early signs that you were sexually different or were you aware at an early age of sexual feelings?
PC: No. It was more or less accidental. I was eighteen years old and I was roughhousing with the brother of a girl that I was having a relationship with. And we suddenly slipped and fell, and the next thing you know we were doing it, as it were.
MS: Is that right?
PC: And we did it for the rest of the summer.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: And it was double duty because I had to be mindful of his sister's needs as well. So it was a very interesting summer.
MS: So you had not been aware before that of any kind of...?
PC: Not really. I mean not I think much different from anyone else. It fell upon me. I remember it was summer of '63. And I went away on vacation. And I went away on vacation pretty much straight and came back rather conflicted at the end of the summer.
MS: You were twenty that year, right? Nineteen?
PC: I thought I was eighteen. Oh it would be twenty?
MS: I guess it would be nineteen.
PC: Yeah I guess I was nineteen, because the boy was fourteen and his sister, my age actually.
MS: Uhhuh. So where were you away that summer?
PC: Paris.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: And maybe that added to it because it was a very romantic summer or something. But I had never expected it to happen to me.
MS: How did you go to Paris? Was it a program of some sort?
PC: My sister married a rich man and he sent us away during the summer. Thought it would be good for us. He gave me riding lessons. Riding lessons: do you believe that?
MS: You were living with...?
PC: Silly helmet.
MS: You were living with them?
PC: No he was just, he liked me. And it turned out later that he was a real bastard, but I didn't know that. Bastard and everything else, but I had no idea that he was.
MS: So you were by yourself there or with your siblings?
PC: No, I was with my sister and her three children and myself. We spent the summer, June, July and August of '63. And I went away on that vacation what I was convinced was completely heterosexual and came back confused.
MS: And the girlfriend was French or was she...?
PC: She was an American.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: But bilingual though.
MS: I see. And so maybe, just to spend a few more minutes then back on before that summer: so you weren't really aware of kind of same-sex sexual feelings in those earlier years? Nothing strikes you in memory about attractions to other boys or anything like that?
PC: Actually no, but I thought that was rather normal. I remember there was a boy that I was somewhat attracted to when I guess I was a senior in high school or something. But I didn't know what they were, those feelings. But he just seemed like a really neat guy.
MS: And you were also attracted to girls?
PC: More or less. More than less. Yeah.
MS: Uhhuh. And so you had been dating girls in Philadelphia?
PC: Yeah I suppose. Yeah.
MS: Do you remember anything from before that summer in Paris about homosexuality ever coming up in discussion, in school or in your family or in church or anything like that?
PC: Well I should begin by saying I grew up in a rather liberal home where people talked about ideas amongst other things. There was always a good laugh going on and a lot of honesty in conversation. My sisters were pretty much single and all their suitors were calling, or potential suitors, boyfriends, guys that came back from the war so they were pretty open. But that's one subject that was not discussed.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: It just was not. And then I went to Roman Catholic schools of the German persuasion.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: And you can imagine how you just didn't talk about that.
MS: So it wasn't talked against. It just wasn't talked about at all?
PC: It was as if it didn't exist. Although I do remember my father saying a few things that were not mean and nasty--I didn't know what he was talking about--about transvestism and how much he enjoyed the transvestites and the Mummer's Parade. And that was such an exciting thing as a young kid. And unfortunately a lot of people used to--I remember him saying this--because they dressed in these skimpy dresses, that they would usually have two or three die every Mummer's Day of exposure to the cold. But I didn't know what he was talking about. I thought it was just people that got in makeup and I think he was referring to something more.
MS: I see. Did you ever go to the Halloween drag parades in Philadelphia? Halloween night?
PC: No.
MS: No. Was there anyone in your neighborhood or in school who other people picked on in any kind of way?
PC: Being queer?
MS: Yeah.
PC: No. I don't remember. I just don't remember.
MS: O.K.
PC: It's hard to explain to people who haven't gone to Catholic schools, but it's such hard work just doing your homework and behaving and trying not to be hit for doing the wrong thing, that the luxury of thinking about homosexuality was something that was just not even discussed.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: Or thought of, anyway.
MS: So I guess then back to that summer, so you had this girlfriend and then you had this episode with her brother and it continued. Was the age difference at all significant in that?
PC: Yeah. Aactually he was a lot prettier than she was.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: That was interesting.
MS: Uhhuh. Was that part of the attraction? That he was younger?
PC: I don't know what. He was the one that came onto me. I didn't come onto him.
MS: Is that right?
PC: And then we sort of had our little secret for the rest of the summer.
MS: Is that when?
PC: And then when I came back from that, my introduction into heterosexual behavior was with a prostitute. My introduction to homosexual behavior was in a purely spontaneous loving situation where there was no money involved. So I think I had a better introduction to homosexuality than I did to heterosexuality.
MS: Was that prostitute in Philadelphia?
PC: This was my rich brother-in-law, who arranged to get me laid with a very fancy call girl.
MS: In Philly?
PC: When I was seventeen or eighteen.
MS: Is that right?
PC: Yeah in Philadelphia.
MS: Did it happen more than once or just that one time?
PC: Just that one time. Yeah that was an unusual experience.
MS: So you separated from both the girlfriend and her brother at the end of that summer or did you see them again?
PC: Well I was in love. I liked the sister a lot. And incidentally we met years and years later. We were workmates for a long time and that never came up. That subject never came up.
MS: So did anyone know that summer?
PC: He did, because I remember coming back to visit and this pretty young boy saying to me at the time that he wanted to talk to me and all that. We went to this one room and we talked and he said that what we were doing was wrong. He knew it was wrong and he confessed it and he didn't ever want it to happen again, but he knew that he would love me for the rest of his life. And he went on for all intents and purposes to be a very straight boy.
MS: Did he ever tell his sister? Not as far as you know?
PC: I don't think so. I mean they had a similar but upper class background, but Irish Catholic nevertheless, and I just don't think they talked about that. So I still know the father.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: I'm very friendly with the father. I imagine he would crown me if he knew what really happened.
MS: Did anybody ever come close to catching you?
PC: No.
MS: Nothing like that? Where would you meet in Paris?
PC: They had a villa in a little town in Sainte Raz [sp?], which was south of Paris. It was a rather large villa. It was really a farmhouse. And Johnny and I lived in the attic for the summer.
MS: Now you were also having sex with his sister or not?
PC: Well it was like that 1960s brand of Roman Catholic sex. We used to call it blue balls, where we would make out and maybe get jacked off or something. Because it was all kind of wrong or something, I don't know.
MS: But you were doing more with the brother?
PC: Oh yeah. I much more enjoyed it. I mean I really wanted to fuck his sister, but I knew that would not be possible.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: She was a princess. And she really wanted to fuck me.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: I knew that. I found out later that she did. And we made compromises physically. But the brother and I had a really nice sexual relationship.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: I mean it was for me.
MS: So let's see, that's '63, right?
PC: Mhmmm.
MS: And then you came back to Philadelphia?
PC: I went back pretty much to Philadelphia for a few days and then went away to college. And it was at that point that I changed at college because I realized that I was quite content with a man as I could be with a woman.
MS: I see.
PC: Maybe even more so.
MS: Actually, maybe we should go back to the dates here because this is conflicting with what you told me before the tape started, where you thought you had gone to college in '61.
PC: Yeah.
MS: And finished in '66.
PC: Mhmmm.
MS: So maybe was that summer in Paris maybe in '61? Was it before you went to college?
PC: Well I went away two summers. I thought it was '63 and '65 that I went away. No, I came back to college, I went into college in '61.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: '62-'63 I went away to Paris. I came back and I was in college from '64 through '66.
MS: I see.
PC: So that makes sense, yeah.
MS: O.K. So you were already a college student when you went away to Paris?
PC: I was a college student. I think I went away, I was probably the end of my freshman, the end of my sophomore year.
MS: I see.
PC: And I had a couple years after that. And when I came back I was not really basically hiding my sexual preference. I guess I was blithely bisexual.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: With a truly continental flare.
MS: Now what do you mean by that?
PC: I just wasn't too concerned. I mean if I wanted to, I was pretty bold and brazen, I guess, when I was a college student. I remember when I came back that if I was with somebody I really liked and I wanted to screw or I wanted to have fun with or play with I would just say it. And maybe nine times out of ten nothing would happen and the tenth, one time out of ten, a lot would happen.
MS: So with a man or a woman?
PC: Yeah, at that point after that I found that it was just more possible with men because with women in those days, I imagine it still is, it's very complicated. I mean you had to go buy flowers and go on these dates and it was expensive.
MS: I see.
PC: If I really wanted a woman I could just go to a whorehouse and get laid.
MS: Would you do that?
PC: Yeah I did that. Yeah. There was a whorehouse in town.
MS: You want to say what town this was that you were in college?
PC: Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.
MS: And were you also having sex with women who weren't prostitutes?
PC: Yeah occasionally, if I got lucky, really lucky. But it was very rare.
MS: But more commonly, much more commonly, with other men.
PC: Yeah, but I was still, in fact as queer as I am, I am still attracted, sexually attracted, to women.
MS: Mhmmm. Now the men, were they other college students?
PC: Generally, yeah.
MS: Generally?
PC: Yeah. I wasn't out going into the town or anything like that. People pretty much in the same situation that I was.
MS: And could you describe some of those incidents? Where would you meet? How you would meet?
PC: I remember one in particular, which is really extraordinary. Are you familiar with the doppelganger, the double stranger in psychiatry where they talk about a man or a woman who is not essentially a homosexual. And all of a sudden meets his mirror or her mirror image...
MS: Right.
PC: ...and they fall in love literally with themselves.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: Well that happened to me.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: I guess I came back, I don't know, it was one of my early years at college. And people would say, “Didn't I see you last night, so and so?” And I'd say, “What are you talking about? I wasn't there.” They said, Well there was somebody there that really looks like you.” And I said, “Who the hell could that be?” And then somebody pointed him out and said this guy's a double of you. And he really was. And I liked what I saw. And I thought, well later, years after, maybe that was the double stranger. I don't know.
MS: Did you get together with him?
PC: Yeah.
MS: How did it happen?
PC: How did it happen? We just got to know each other and then I remember I would just come around. I was usually the one that was usually instituting the sexual encounters. And I remember he was a disk jockey at a radio station on the weekends. And I would come there and come into the station and carry on. That was really bizarre.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: While the music was playing and while the network was on, we were doing it.
MS: Uhhuh. And did you ever encounter hostility when you would come on to someone?
PC: Yeah. Oh sure.
MS: Any real nasty incidents?
PC: One time I remember. Well generally, since I only pursued people that I was a student with, there was a certain sense of liberality. That's part of education. But I remember one time there was one fellow who got got his nose out of joint.
MS: And was there any kind of violence or just...?
PC: There almost was.
MS: Yeah?
PC: He was going to punch me in the nose and I said, “Well you better make it count, because I'll kill you.” And he was bigger than I was, but he saw I was quite serious.
MS: You would come on pretty directly? Is that what you're saying?
PC: Pretty much so. I mean I was bold. Maybe that's why I'm a good salesman. I've had a lot of rejection.
MS: And you found people, the men in college, pretty accepting, it sounds like. Even the ones who weren't interested were tolerant?
PC: I don't know if tolerant's the word or accepting. I think they were either interested or they weren’t. Or they just didn't care. I don't know that that's acceptance or tolerance. They were indifferent.
MS: Were there particular places you would go to have sex or was it pretty much any kind of place?
PC: The dormitory rooms.
MS: Yeah?
PC: Our dormitory rooms. I do remember one time going up to a nearby town and going to this notorious gay bar that somebody had mentioned to me.
MS: Do you remember the town or the bar?
PC: Yeah. I think it was Scranton, Pennsylvania. I think it was called like the Penn Lounge or something like that. It was a real dump. So I went there. But I had a good time and I picked up this pretty boy.
MS: Is that the first bar you had walked into?
PC: I think it really was basically. And I think I rented a hotel room, a motel room or something. And we had this great sex. Or at least at the time it seemed like great sex. And then I got gonorrhea from that.
MS: Mmmm. You must have gone to student health or something?
PC: No, I went to my brother-in-law, who is my doctor. And again, he never even mentioned sexual, I mean gonococcus infection is gonococcus infection. He says, “You got the clap.”
That's just the way he talked to me. And he didn't even do a culture or anything. He's an old Navy guy. He said I hope you had a good time. I said I had a great time.
MS: But he had no idea.
PC: He said “Just be careful, better start using rubbers babe.”
MS: He had no idea that it had been with a man?
PC: No. He didn't even ask. It didn't even concern him.
MS: Right.
PC: I remember he said, “I'll put down here nsu, non-specific urethral infection.” Which is what officers get in the Navy. Enlisted men get gonorrhea.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: I was early onto condoms, I guess probably for that reason.
MS: Mmmm.
PC: And I remember I used to be, 'cause I was screwing some women too, and I found that I would get problems.
MS: If you didn't use them?
PC: Yeah. So somebody just said, “Oh you better use rubbers.” And I did. Maybe that's why I'm still here.
MS: Hmmm. Hmmm. Was there a particular type of man you were attracted to in those years?
PC: Pretty boys.
MS: What did that mean? Younger or smaller?
PC: No.
MS: Effeminate?
PC: Oh the more effeminate they were, the better.
MS: Yeah?
PC: I would like, even drag queens would be fine with me. And I always considered myself sort of a queer queer because I was attracted to the boys that you weren't supposed to be attracted to. I mean they were always telling me you're supposed to go after these real men with muscles. And I would go, “Oh god, man, I'd go to a stable for one of them. I want something pretty.” So I would be attracted to finely-boned and -featured boys or hairless types. And then I'd like exotica. Even now. They're interesting. Still now.
MS: Hmmm. Hmmm. And I'm trying to think how to ask this: would sex be pretty mutual or would you be more quote unquote active in sex?
PC: Are you trying to say did I like to fuck or get fucked?
MS: That, but also in terms of oral sex and anything else that you were doing.
PC: It's funny. This was pretty much a bisexual period for me and maybe even a little bit later on. I found that I liked oral sex with women. I really used to like to satisfy that way. And get them so excited that they would really want to get fucked. And then get them more excited. And I realize now that I look back that it was a whole sort of control and power thing to me. And the same way with men. I never really took to getting fucked 'til I went to Arabia.
MS: Mmmm.
PC: And quite frankly, I don't think I really, I mean I did it, and I had a good time, but I really didn't like it.
MS: Mmmm.
PC: I liked to be the fucker generally.
MS: And you found that that was pretty accepted by the men you were having sex with?
PC: Well sometimes you'd get a surprise, as you can imagine. Some of the girls that you thought would be so demure and pleasant would all of the sudden be grabbing on to get on top and fuck you. And I think people get pretty honest when they take their clothes off.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: And with some of the so-called pretty boys, it was not what you thought it was going to be when you started doing it.
MS: Uhhuh. Now were all the guys white, as far as you knew?
PC: No I was always attracted to exotica and mixed races appeal to me. In fact my present boyfriend is black as that chair, which is very black for those who can't see the television picture.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: Yeah I like exotica, mixed races.
MS: So from early on you were having sex with non-whites?
PC: Yeah.
MS: And in your college town, that was available with the other students?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Yeah? And what races did that mean? Can you remember back to that time?
PC: Well this doppelganger type that I was attracted to, he had a lot more Indian in him than I did, so he had higher cheekbones and all that stuff.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: But yeah, I mean he was mixed.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: And yeah, I don't like people that are generally one thing or another. I like a little bit of a mix. I think it makes it more interesting.
MS: I see.
PC: Hybrid bigger, I think they call it.
MS: Uhhuh. So anything else interesting that you think we should mention about those college years? Through '66? Were you discovering anything in Philadelphia during those years?
PC: Oh yeah. I would come home for the break. And I was going to the gay bars and things like that.
MS: You were?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Remember the first bar you went to in Philadelphia?
PC: Yeah, it was called the Drury Lane.
MS: When did you go there? Could you guess? Was it while you were in college?
PC: Yeah I think so. Mid-'60s or something like that.
MS: Do you remember what it looked like?
PC: Actually it may have been the Allegro. I'm not sure. But I remember the Drury Lane particularly. The Allegro was at 15th and Spruce.
MS: And where was the Drury Lane?
PC: On Drury Street. Is it Manning and Camac or something like that. Yeah.
MS: And what kind of bar was the Drury Lane?
PC: Fancy. Fancy fags.
MS: Yeah?
PC: With a fancy fag restaurant upstairs. Gaudy French restaurant. I spoke French then, so I’d be attracted to, still to this day I’m a bit of a Francophile.
MS: Uhhuh. And would you pick up men there?
PC: Yeah. Or get picked up.
MS: Or get picked up? And any other bars you were going to and remember in those years? Aside from the Allegro and the Drury Lane?
PC: Well there was a dancing club, which was kind of fun. And two that were after-hours ones that I used to like.
MS: Do you remember the names? Or where they were?
PC: Yeah one was on Quince Street. And I think it's a gay-owned, gay bar now but it used to belong to Lacemaker's Union or something. And then it became, I cannot remember, I think it was just initials. Like P.C.P.
MS: Can I try it out? Was it P.B.L?
PC: I think it was, yeah.
MS: There was also one called the USA&A?
PC: Yeah. There was one that was on Locust Street, upstairs, between Broad and 15th, that I used to like to go to.
MS: What were after-hours clubs like? What was that whole arrangement?
PC: A lot of dancing. There wasn't any sex. But people were picking up one another. And that's poppers. People were doing poppers. They were quite fun.
MS: In the '60s, yeah?
PC: Yeah. Music was fun. I never knew what it was. I said, “Oh my god, somebody opened a gym locker in here. Whoa!” You know that's what it smelled like when I first smelled 'em. And I remember there was a little thing that you'd do. You'd finish from the clubs and then go over to one of the all-night eateries and have coffee.
MS: Do you remember which ones you went to?
PC: There was a place across from the Warwick Hotel. It's still there. I think it's called Little Pete's, but it was called something else then.
MS: Was it Dewey's?
PC: Yeah, it was called Dewey's. Yeah.
MS: Was that the one on 17th and Chancellor or 13th and Chancellor? I think there were two of them.
PC: This was 17th.
MS: 17th?
PC: Yeah 17th. And then there was another one, which was a Greek-type late night restaurant on Spruce at 18th.
MS: You remember the name of that?
PC: Day's Deli.
MS: Uhhuh. You mentioned a dance club before. Was that the after-hours clubs?
PC: It was, yeah. That was called the P.B.L, you were right. That was on Quince Street. And then there was, was it the USA&A? I think. Then I remember a fancy gay bar. Oh god I can't remember the name of it. And then there was the Drury Lane too. I found that once I discovered baths, I rarely went to bars after that, ‘cause I really don't like to drink.
MS: Well maybe before moving onto the baths I want to ask you some more about the restaurants and the bars. Were those mixed lesbian and gay?
PC: Yes. Yes they were.
MS: All of them? Do you remember Drury Lane?
PC: Drury Lane? No. Oh no. The bars I don't remember as being mixed. They were either men, and I never even went into a women's bar. I don't remember that.
MS: So the Drury Lane you remember was all men.
PC: Yeah.
MS: Let's see you mentioned the Allegro?
PC: The Allegro was all men as far as I remember.
MS: Both of those places, do you remember them racially mixed or all white?
PC: Yeah they were racially mixed. They were, yeah.
MS: O.K. The after-hours clubs, were those mixed men and women?
PC: Not really, no. I somehow don't remember them. It seemed to me that they were very, that lesbians were very segregated from my group. I never really ran into them. I was probably running into them all the time, but I just never knew it.
MS: What about drags in those four places? Would you see drags in Drury Lane, the Allegro, or the after-hours clubs?
PC: Not much. Not much then.
MS: How about the restaurants? Day's Deli and the Dewey's? Lesbians in there? Drags in there?
PC: Yeah. I think that was a real mixture. The restaurants were really mixed.
MS: Did the men and women get along okay?
PC: Yeah. IThat's one thing I found out about Philadelphia growing up. I think that might have been the Quaker influence. We tend to be a pretty tolerant, truly not indifferent, but tolerant. I don't know if that's true anymore, but it was just, I don't know, just tried to get along.
MS: Mhmmm. And you think that was the Quaker influence?
PC: I think. That's my theory. I think that had a lot to do with it.
MS: And you think that mattered for how lesbians and gay men interacted?
PC: Well I think that that whole experience, how Pennsylvania was founded and who it was founded by, the great tolerance of the Quakers, having put up with so much on their own, it was embedded in the educational institutions in Philadelphia. It was everywhere. I mean it was something that you just accepted.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: That's how I felt. That's one of the things that I feel very warm about Philadelphia.
MS: Did you have any friends who were lesbians during those years?
PC: No.
MS: But you would be friendly with them if you were in the same place?
MS: Sure. But I found, and in fact to this day I still, they're a lot more approachable than they used to be, but I think they were more closeted than I was, and I was pretty closeted. I mean if you came out and asked me I'd answer you, unless you were asking for trouble. It might be different then. But I found them to be kind of an unapproachable group.
MS: Did they tend to be quote unquote masculine lesbians? Butch lesbians? The ones you'd see, say, out in the restaurants?
PC: Yeah, I guess that's how I knew. I do remember one time. I had gone to a party out on the Main Line and I met a girl there who I was very much attracted to. And I drove her home to her apartment and we had sex. And it was really good. And then I met her a couple times after that. And there were only certain times that we could get together. And then one time we were getting together and I found out that her lover indeed was a lesbian. And she was on her way up the steps. And I got out of there fast. And I mean I've been involved in adulterous situations, but I don't like them. I don't like that kind of confrontation. And I do remember that being pretty scary. And I never knew that she was a lesbian.
MS: Was that in the '60s?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Yeah?
PC: That must have been pretty early in the '60s. But surprised me. I guess she was a lesbian, right?
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: I didn’t know.
MS: You just mentioned a party. Were you going to a lot of house parties during those years?
PC: Yeah there were a lot more then than there are now. There weren't that many public venues for, I mean there were a few and they were rather notorious. But for people maybe who were bisexual or homophilic or homosexual or whatever you want to say, parties seemed to be better.
MS: And would they be all over the city and in the suburbs or were they concentrated in any particular parts?
PC: All over. This happened to be a pretty upscale one. And I was invited by my father's friend, who was pretty rich. And he had gone away for the weekend and his son was giving a party. And his son was a notorious queer who I liked very much.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: And he'd invite me to these parties and have all these suburban types, these rich spoiled kids.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: Which was fun.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: I enjoyed it.
MS: Did you go to parties in Center City as well?
PC: I went to a few. I went to some good ones, I remember. But I guess there are parties now; I just don't think there are that many of them anymore.
MS: O.K. And would these be huge parties with lots of people or really small dinner parties?
PC: I went to a lot of dinner parties. But I'm sure there were huge parties. Most of the huge parties I went to were usually political fundraisers and things like that, which had no really sexual overtones. But there'd be a lot going on in those parties.
MS: Uhhuh. And would the parties be mixed women and men?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Yeah?
PC: Usually people were coupled off, but I was really accepted. If you were single, it was O.K.
MS: And so when I say mixed women and men, mixed lesbian and gay men?
PC: Sometimes I would find out later. Like I remember meeting one person at a dinner party and I was kind of surprised because she was....
MS: Do you want me to pause?
[tape turned off and then back on]
MS: So we were talking about house parties. Did you ever go to any of the Black gay bars in the city?
PC: I don't think so. I do remember there was one I sort of liked. They used to have drag shows. Was it called P.J.'s or something? And it was on...
MS: S.K.'s?
PC: It was on, what's the street just north of South?
MS: Lombard?
PC: Lombard.
MS: P.J.'s?
PC: P.J.'s.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: And I remember they were sort of mixed. And I did get picked up in there one night in the early '60s, late '60s rather, by a Negro gentleman. And we had become screw buddies for years after that.
MS: Is that right?
PC: Yeah. But that was pretty mixed, that particular bar.
MS: Uhhuh. P.J.'s.
PC: But it was a lot of drag queens in there. I had never really known drag. I loved them. I used to love the shows and all that stuff.
MS: And was it Black and white drag queens in there?
PC: Yeah. It was all mixed up. I liked that place.
MS: You mentioned bathhouses before. Do you remember the first time you went to a bathhouse?
PC: You mean a predominantly gay bathhouse?
MS: Yeah.
PC: Yeah. I went to the Continental Baths here in New York. When was that? That must have been in 1970. But that's beyond your period.
MS: No, no it's not. I'm going through '76. So it was later than the bars and parties that you were talking about.
PC: Yeah. And then I said well why should I go to these bars when I drink too much there? Alcohol didn't agree with me and I said why not get to the point?
MS: So where were the bathhouses in Philly?
PC: Obviously for the longest time, there was always a lot that went on at the so-called straight bathhouses like the Camac, as you well know. I heard people talk about that, but I never. I had gone there as a kid to these various places but I never saw anything going on. But I know.
MS: Your father would go to the bathhouse? Or you would go?
PC: I would go with, yeah, my father, I would go with my brother, I would go with my friend if we'd be in the city. And then my brother-in-law. And we'd go to the Camac. But all I saw was just you'd take a schvitz, you'd do your steam, and you'd come out and get a massage, which was really nice. I do remember being young getting massages and not being able to turn over 'cause I had a hard-on.
MS: You do?
PC: I remember that. The guy would say, “It's O.K. kid, don't worry about it. Just turn over. We see a load of those.” So I think I got pretty healthy, 'cause I was around a lot of nudity as a kid.
MS: Right.
PC: So even today, I had a house guest here last night. And I mean he's a nice fella', but I guess he thought I was trying to jump in bed with him, which I wasn't. I just had my clothes off. I said I'm not gonna' change my; I mean this is the way I walk around my house.
MS: Right. So what about the gay bathhouses starting in '70 that you were going to?
PC: In Philadelphia?
MS: Yeah, which were those?
PC: Well there was one, I think it was called the Steamworks, which was just north of Rittenhouse Square between 18th and 19th. And that street, I think it's called Ranstead? Maybe it's not Randstead. A very small street. I used to go to Steamworks or something. I don't know. Maybe it was called the Steam Works.
MS: And it was a gay bathhouse?
PC: Yeah. Yeah, that was a lot of fun.
MS: Remember the layout? What it looked like?
PC: Yeah, it was a basement-type thing. Seemed like a factory. And they had all these rooms and they had a steam room. And then there was also a bathhouse over in Camden, which I didn't like because the neighborhood was so awful.
MS: Was that the Club Baths or something like that?
PC: Yeah. There was another Club Baths in Philadelphia, which I guess was the first one that opened. Was that in the '70s? That was on 13th Street. Still there. And I liked that. That was fun. It was pretty wild.
MS: And were these places, I know they were all men; were they also mixed race?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Yeah?
PC: Yeah they were.
MS: And would you say mixed class? Do you have any idea?
PC: Yes. Very much mixed class. One of the things I liked about them.
MS: And can you describe for me a typical sexual encounter in one of the bathhouses? Was it happening everywhere? Was it happening in particular areas of the bathhouses?
PC: It was happening everywhere. It was pretty uninhibited. Yeah. A lot of public stuff, which I enjoyed. I guess that's part of it.
MS: Group sex?
PC: Yeah. Although I didn't like it when it was, I never really like sex in the dark, to this day. I had a lover for the longest time who I thought was sexually repressed because he always had to put the lights out. I don’t want to put the lights out. I want to see. I'm enjoying this so much, let him see it.
MS: Right.
PC: No, no, no. So yeah, they had those dark rooms. I never liked them. I would really stay away from them. I like to see where I'm, who I am enjoying.
MS: Right. Did you have any kind of sustained relationships with men in the '60s?
PC: Well one of my professors at college, I remember when I came back to visit him. I was close to him when I was an undergraduate but nothing really happened. But I remember going back to visit him and then we had sex. It was kind of a strange relationship. It was bizarre, I guess. I liked him a lot but then he died rather suddenly in the early '70s.
MS: Hmmm.
PC: Probably murdered, I suppose.
MS: Really?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Was he much older than you were?
PC: Yeah. Much older.
MS: Which was atypical for you, is that right?
PC: Yeah, really atypical. Still is to this day.
MS: Was that a sustained relationship? Is that why you brought that up?
PC: Yeah. We corresponded a lot. And he was a brilliant man. And he would send me lots of books, inscribed books. And it was a really almost a Greek ideal type relationship. And he was a drunk, too, so that took a lot of work. Those people are very difficult to get along with.
MS: So you had a sustained sexual relationship with him over a period of time?
PC: Yeah. I guess it was more of an intellectual relationship but when we got together we would screw.
MS: I see.
PC: And that's what we did. I fucked him.
MS: But any other like steady boyfriends during those years?
PC: Gosh nothing really comes to mind. I guess I had affairs and I had fuck buddies but I didn't play house with anybody until I was, I guess in 19-, oh wait a minute. When I was in Arabia I had a couple boyfriends. Oh yeah. Yes.
MS: Well maybe you should talk about that, but before we get to that, I know you were in North Africa, right, in the Peace Corps.
PC: Yeah.
MS: Between '66 and '68. Any kind of sexual experiences there?
PC: Yeah a couple. I mean I had mostly heterosexual, but I had a few homosexual experiences.
MS: What country were you in?
PC: Tunisia. Yeah they were very interesting to say the least.
MS: And Saudi Arabia you were, let's see, we figured out before it was '69 to '72.
PC: Yeah.
MS: And you had some relationships there, it sounds like.
PC: Yeah.
MS: You want to tell me about those?
PC: Well I had no sexual relationships with Americans or Brits, any we used to call first country nationals, second country nationals. First country national being an American, second country national being a Brit, third country national would be somebody from the third world. I liked the third country nationals. They were kind of fun. I had a couple, two Palestinian boyfriends. They were really pretty. And I had one particular boyfriend who is now very happily married, flying airplanes for an airline.
MS: Were these younger guys?
PC: Yeah.
MS: Were they ever students of yours?
PC: No. Some I tutored in English actually. But that was a strange country. I had never been in a place that had been so cloistered other than Roman Catholicism, which is pretty cloistered. But this was really bizarre. I mean there were people there. I remember going to parties, being invited to parties, and dancing with men and all men dancing. And people moving to their music and maybe servants moving around and everything. And they were absolutely convinced that they were not homosexual. But this was sort of like well next best available choice.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: Yeah that was a strange experience, because I think to this day my attitude towards my homosexuality is quite healthy. And towards sexuality is quite healthy, because I'm very open about it, except where it's not appropriate. Why am I gonna' discuss this in the wrong place?
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: But yeah, I had some very nice friendships while over there.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: While I was there. I had quite a stable as it were. Even my servant was queer.
MS: So did you find it much more?
PC: It was a very gay country.
MS: More of a gay country than...
PC: Oh yeah.
MS: ...United States?
PC: No, no. I don't think it's any more gay. But it's just, it's like it's there. It's a different way of doing things, but it's there.
MS: Back in Philadelphia, we've talked about restaurants and bathhouses and bars. Were there other places that you would go to for cruising or for sex in Philadelphia neighborhoods? Parks or any of the squares?
PC: Well I know a lot of people did that, but knowing the violent nature of America, I rarely did it. And I never liked it. Number one was the danger of running into some axe murderer. And two, and this is a very serious consideration for me, I just never knew where I was gonna' wash. So I wasn't too worried about getting arrested or locked up or anything like that. But I guess it did cross my mind. No, I never liked it. Although I was traveling to Europe, a lot of public sex in the parks or shaking my dick around in the men's room and stuff like that. I mean there wasn't a problem. I mean it wasn't as violent as here. But here there was this....
MS: So you didn't do that in Philadelphia?
PC: No.
MS: Bathroom sex? No?
PC: No. I mean I guess I had done it, but it's hard for me to really remember it. I never really liked it because it was just too, too, too dangerous.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: And it is to this day, I think.
MS: Mhmmm.
PC: Now some people enjoy that. They find that stimulating. I don't particularly find that stimulating. I find that disconcerting and it ruins my concentration.
MS: Now through this time we've been talking about, like say '72, did you ever read anything about homosexuality?
PC: Yeah. Yeah. I remember two books that hit me. I don't know if in this period that I read them and enjoyed it but [?]. Something that made an impression on me.
MS: This is Matt Crowley, The Boys in the Band.
PC: Matt Crowley. I remember I had seen it.
MS: It's dated October '69.
PC: '69. And I remember coming back when I was in Arabia, going back to the theater group there where I was, and we actually did a reading from it.
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: So it made an impression on me. I remember The Persian Boy. What are you looking at? I like that book very much. And I found another one. There’s another one. And then there were the usual, that one that Gore Vidal wrote. It was so horrible. So many of those.
MS: The City and the Pillar?
PC: Yeah. I mean it's like faggots are supposed to kill themselves at the end. And I said to myself, “Well that's not me.” That's where I think I'm very healthy about that.
MS: You remember the first gay novel you read?
PC: First gay novel. I guess it wasn't really gay, but I thought Billy Budd I suppose.
MS: You read that in school?
PC: Yeah. And it struck me as he's gay. You know I even remember, this is the sensibility, I guess the gay sensibility, reading in the Bible. It struck me, I remember, we were doing Bible study. And I remember saying to the priest, “How come they call a man beautiful?” And I remember the priest saying, “Well that's the only time in the Bible that men are ever called beautiful, if they're angels.” And I thought to myself, “I like those angels.”
MS: Uhhuh.
PC: In fact if I see a boy now that's really pretty, I call him an angel.
MS: Uhhuh. Were there, did you ever read any kind of...?
PC: Oh, I remember Andre Gide. That one that took place in Tunisia. I'll think of it in a moment. And a couple that I read by, oh god, it was the criminal. I read everything he wrote. The De Noir.
MS: Genet?
PC: Genet. De Noir and a couple of the others I read.
MS: Is it The Immortalist that you're thinking of?
PC: No. I don't remember what it was called. I read it in French, so I don't remember.
MS: Did you ever read any psychiatry or sexology during those years?
PC: Yeah.
MS: The Kinsey study?
PC: Yeah.
MS: What do you remember about reading it? Or when you read it? Did you read it before you came out?
PC: I remember when I was in the Peace Corps and they gave us those Rorschach tests. The Rorschach tests. And then they gave us the Minnesota Multiphasic. And I was really concerned. I remember I was like: “A lot of these questions. I mean being gay I know I'm gonna' answer them different from other people and I don't want to be separated out from this unit 'cause I really wanted Peace Corps.” And I remember going to my sister, who then was a psychology student, graduate student. And I said, “I'm taking these tests and they're doing this and they're videotaping us and they've got mirrored rooms and everything.” And she said, “Oh they're looking for queers.” She didn't say queers. She said homosexuals. I said, “Oh yeah, that's what I thought too.” So I went to the director of my group, who was the guy that was leading. There were twenty-one of us volunteers that were going to leave and it was a very select group and he really wanted all of us to go. And he said, “They're looking for queers.” I remember him saying they’re looking, he didn't say homosexual, “They're looking for queers.” And he said “I hope they find a lot because they're the only ones that are gonna' make it in the desert.”
MS: He said that?
PC: Yes. I remember very well. This guy's an ex-lifer from the Marines. And I love him dearly, Ken. And Ken stormed in. He stormed into the psychiatrist room, Dr. Stein. I remember. And I heard this arguing and everything and then he came back. And I remember him coming back saying, “Well I told him what. Give me all the queers you got because they're the only ones that are gonna' make it.” I remember he mentioned a couple of places.
MS: Why did he say they were the only ones who would make it?
PC: 'Cause he was right. He was right. Because I went to a village where there never was anybody before. And I think they must have figured out I was queer and I did extremely well. His feeling was that, I remember him explaining this later. He said, “If you're a homosexual living in a heterosexual world, you have great adaptability skills. And if you're going to be living in a community with a completely different culture, a completely different language, a completely different way of dressing, and no women, a queer is better suited than a straight man.” I remember him saying that. Give me all you got! So I loved that. I remember that. That's a pretty interesting concept, isn't it?
MS: Yeah. Did you ever have any run-ins with the law?
PC: I remember one time being pulled over by the police in Philadelphia. And I was with this guy. I think they knew that we were queer. Not so much from me because I don't really, I am who I am, but he was what I like. He was a pretty boy. And they were giving me a hard time and everything like that.
MS: When you said pulled over, do you mean you were driving and they pulled you over?
PC: Yeah, I was driving and I must have done something wrong or something and they were giving us a hard time. They made us come into the police station. We came into the police station and they were all yelling and screaming at me. And I was pretty quiet and I didn't say much. And I remember him looking at my license and he saw the name and he said, “Are you related to so and so.” And I said, “Yeah that's my uncle.” “Oh.” And then [words erased] that was over and they treated us real nice and it really pissed me off after that. I remember the guy I was with said, “What happened? I mean we went in there and they hated our guts and all of the sudden they come out and they're escorting and do we all know our way home and all this stuff.” I said “it's disgusting, isn't it?” Because you know if we didn't know, if I didn't know anybody, and I never, they asked me. I didn't say anything. I just thought it was unfair. But I found it that way the world over so.
MS: Your uncle was a policeman? Was that it?
PC: No, he was a....
MS: But just someone who was known?
PC: Known politically.
MS: I see.
PC: So that was the end of it. And then I learned a little lesson from that which was that life's unfair. It just is.
MS: So you never were caught up in a bar raid?
PC: I've been in there when it's happened.
MS: Yeah?
PC: I remember the Allegro, them coming in and just staying absolutely still. And they're doing what they're doing. Usually the bar raids were when the police weren't getting paid off. The captain wasn't getting paid off.
MS: Did you ever see payoffs happen?
PC: Yeah. Not in a gay bar, but in a gambling place, I saw one.
MS: O.K.
PC: And I made payoffs on a delivery. So there was a way of doing it and I knew how.
MS: Not in gay bars but in gambling places?
PC: No, I was doing it for other things. It was when I was very young, I was delivering those things. But you know the world is a very corrupt place and I'm not surprised.
MS: The raid that you were in at the Allegro? Did they take anyone?
PC: Raids.
MS: Raids? Did they take people in?
PC: Yeah. They would take people in, people who I guess they felt were weak and didn't know anybody. Or weak and maybe they were obvious. They never bothered me. I remember them talking to me a couple times and just moving on.
MS: So who would they take? You said the people who were more obvious?
PC: People who were obvious or maybe they'd grab the bartender and take him out. And they were pretty rough. But they were never rough with me. I don't know. I think it's they knew or something. I never said anything because I didn't want to be embarrassed either.
MS: You mean they knew that your family was well-connected?
PC: I don't know. I guess maybe they thought, a lot of them were Irish cops, too, and I guess they. But nobody ever really talked me out, you know, what’s your name and everything. And then moving on and saying you oughta be out of here, you shouldn’t be in a place like this.
MS: Was it just the Allegro that you were present for raids or any of the after-hours clubs or the restaurants?
PC: I saw it in a couple of the after-hours clubs where they'd turn the lights on. Police were very harassing then. And it was pure graft. I mean there were only certain districts. And I knew the way it worked. The captain in the district had a bag man and the bag man was usually related, maybe a brother-in-law or something like that. And he was supposed to take the fall if they got caught. He'd pick up the payoffs. The captain was never involved.
MS: How did you know about the arrangement? Word of mouth?
PC: Because I grew up in a political family and every captain, unless he's really honest. And there were some that were very honest, I mean really good people, and there were some that were real bastards.
MS: I thought maybe we could finish off with a couple of topics. One we haven't talked at all about: your reactions to the gay movement when it developed in the '50s and '60s. I guess in the '60s in Philadelphia. And I don't know if you remember when Stonewall happened. But I'm curious what you thought about activism in those years or if you were even aware of it.
PC: Well I remember the Mattachine Society being the first organization. And I remember when I was actively in the closet, as it were, and I imagine there was a need for it, but I felt, and maybe this could be some sort of self-loathing on my part, but I felt that if people get to really know us. At the moment, the great mass of the American people at that time didn't know anything about us and therefore they couldn't hate us or love us. The only people that really knew us were those that, say lawyers and cops and people like that would have contact with us. But most people just didn't know us and you sort of were left alone. But I think, and I think correctly, that I had gauged American common sensibility, fed by the popular media, that if they got to know us, they would really hate us. Not that I hated. I loved my group, but I don't think that it would fit in the normal sensibility. And I believe to this day that it doesn't. I'm still gay and I'm a lot more openly gay here in New York than I ever was in Philadelphia.
MS: You thought activists were threatening?
PC: Well activists were going to change my life, and I thought in a way for the bad.
MS: Do you remember when you first heard about the gay movement? You said Mattachine. How did you know the Mattachine existed?
PC: I must have read it somewhere. I can't remember. And I thought to myself when I read it, I thought, “Well why? I mean isn't everything O.K.?” And I guess I marched in gay pride for the first time last year here in New York. And I felt very good about that. And it was a very good feeling. And perhaps their work was a good thing now that I look back. I think I was wrong. But I mean it's obvious how the American people felt about us. Look at what happened with AIDS. I heard, I was in straight rooms with people who should have known better making comments like, “Well the only people that have this AIDS thing now are fags, niggers, and so what? And drug addicts, junkies. So let 'em die.” I actually heard that from people who should have known better. And that wasn't too long ago. So I really don't think that the American people are really very tolerant. It's better they be ignorant about certain things. But so be it. That's the way it is.
MS: In the '70s you started to move from Philadelphia to New York City. First you were working here and then you made the full move.
PC: Yeah.
MS: How come? Why did you leave Philadelphia?
PC: In 1976, I fell in love with a guy here in New York City. And within a month I moved in with him and was living with him. And we stayed lovers through I guess the early '80s. We don't talk now. We're really estranged.
MS: You had been working here, though, for a few years before that, right?
PC: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: How would you compare Philly to New York in those years?
PC: Well it's certainly different. I remember when I would drive with people from Philadelphia, and we'd be turning off exit 13 on the turnpike and getting on the toll bridge. And you'd pay the guy the money. No, I'd be getting on the turnpike down in South Jersey, and you'd pay them the money or whatever, and they'd say, “Thank you.” And I'd turn to my Philadelphia friends and I'd say, “That's the last time you're gonna' hear that.” And it was generally so, but I found out later on that that was not really true.
MS: But what about gay life in Philadelphia versus gay life in New York? Was it much different?
PC: Oh I think it was. I think to this day I prefer it. There are just more, more possibilities. There are certain specialist groups that I like very much that don't exist in Philadelphia. There's a gay aviation group. I'm crazy about planes and have been since I've been a kid. There's nothing like that in Philadelphia. And I'm very active in that group here.
MS: Why do you think there's so much more in New York than in Philly?
PC: There's just more people. More money, more jobs. Yet I would frankly, if I could do what I do in Philadelphia, I would be in Philadelphia. My life would be better. My rent would be lower and I'd be amongst my family, which is very supportive and wonderful. But to get a job that I have in Philadelphia would take years to develop. And I could lose it in a second and there would be no place else to go. But here in New York, if I lose my present job I would just get another one like it.
MS: You just mentioned your family. Your family ever find out that you were gay? Has that been very open?
PC: No. It's not even talked about. Not even discussed. I think they realized after a certain point in the early '70s to stop fixing me up. And they were very nice about my boyfriend. I mean I was living with my boyfriend.
MS: But never talked about it explicitly.
PC: Well I remember I think they were kind of pleased. I remember my aunt saying to me at my mother's wake that she knew her sister, my mother, knew that I was gay, that I was homosexual. And she was very happy, although she couldn't say it, that I was with Kevin. And I think one of the reasons was at least Kevin was a known commodity. A lot of the girls that I went out with were not totally acceptable.
MS: When was that? When was your mother's wake?
PC: My mother died in 1980. But my aunt telling me that she knew a long time ago. I think they know. They just don't talk about it.
MS: Maybe one last question. How would you compare how lesbians and gay men get along today to how they got along in the '60s and early '70s in Philadelphia? Have things gotten closer or farther apart?
PC: Well I don't know about Philadelphia that much anymore, but I know in New York. Can I make one comment about Stonewall, if I may?
MS: Yeah sure.
PC: When that happened, I loved it. I really loved it, because I had been tired of seeing these pigs. And I have a lot of cops in my own family, so I don't mean it that way. But these people would swear allegiance to defend the people in the community and then find weak people in that community and extort money from them. I got kind of tired of that. And I felt, being an Irish Catholic, that most of them that were doing it were the same. And when they got beat up by a bunch of drag queens I thought it was wonderful. And I felt very proud about that night. Next week we celebrate it here and it's a very important thing to me. So I have kind of mixed feelings. But what was the other question? I had to say that.
MS: Sorry, no. That was pretty interesting. About how lesbians and gay men get along today.
PC: I think that, my opinion is much, much better. Because people came out of the closet, whether they had to or not. I mean I guess basically I was almost impelled or compelled or I had to come out of the closet here in New York. And also I think the political involvement, and especially with the threat of AIDS, which really, AIDS doesn't really threaten the lesbian community that much. But they have been wonderful. And there's an affection that I have for my sisters that I never felt before. In fact there was almost an antipathy that I had for them in the late '60s and '70s. But now I have good feelings about them. And I know their political activities are really great and I have a lot of respect for them. So I think they're better. The situation is better now in that sense. Maybe we're not liked. I mean before they didn't even know who they were. I mean the great mass of the people in Peoria, whoever they are, didn't know who they were. So they couldn't hate us or love us. They just didn't know who they were. Now that we're known, the great mass of the American people really don't like us. I knew that they never would. But from that, we've learned to love our gay sisters. And there's a certain strength that comes from that. And a feeling of fellowship that we never had before. So I guess I thank those founders of the gay political movement. Yeah I do.
MS: Well any final thoughts you want to share before we tie this up?
PC: The final thought is I'm glad you came here and I feel very good about getting some of these feelings out ‘cause nobody was willing to listen or ask the right questions or something. You asked what appeared to be the right questions. They seemed to me to be the right questions. And you listened to my answers. And I respect that. Thank you.
MS: Well thank you.